Water Use of WMC EG-75

cubicacres

We noticed the water meter on our VXT auto-water feeder is pretty slow & steady (maybe adding a gallon every week or two) when the weather is around 30 F, but seems to add a few more (2-4) gallons when we get a cold snap for a few days down to 0 F or the single digits. With our WMC EG-75 single-pipe steam system and 22 radiators for 780 sq ft of EDR in the system, does this seem reasonable for water use? Or might there be some leaking radiator air vents or pipe leaks? The manual cautions us over 15 gallons per month of water use, but some have said around 5 gallons per heating season is reasonable, not per month.

Fred

2-4 gallons a week is high. I'd check the main vents, radiator vents for possibility they are not fully closing and radiator valves and piping for possible leaks.
I have a Burnham rated at 866 sq. ft. and I haven't had to add any water yet, expect to replace water when I do a weekly blow-down.

BobC

Any excuse will due when you really don't want to honor the warranty.

Bob

Fred

@cubicacres , I use an MM67 LWCO and I blow my boiler down weekly. I blow anywhere from a quart to a half gallon to get clean water. That is 1 to 2 gallons of water max for blowdown. Others who do maunal blow downs may only do that every two weeks. Anyone who suggests you will use 15 gallons of water just for a blow down is just providing erroneous information or don't understand how the MM67 functions.
Also, when you blow down a boiler, you do so when the boiler is running, to test the LWO. That heats that half gallon of water immediately, removing excess oxygen.
I don't want to move your thread to a discussion on LWCO's and/or Blowdowns because that is not the issue you are seeking assistance with. Perhaps a new thread may be in order for those who wish to discuss manual blowdowns.

cubicacres

Thanks. I remember it being steady at 3 gal for a few weeks after the install to verify the LWCO, then moving to 5 when the temp. dropped 30 degrees, then about a gallon per week or two use, with occassional 2-4 gallon increases during 1-2 weeks of colder weather. I can ask the tennants if we can look at their radiators to see if they're leaking frm the supply valve or air vents.
We did have one that did, and turned the Hoffman 1A adjustable vent down to 2 from 6, which seemed to help stop the air vent spitting water. We have all new 1A Hoffman adjustable vents in the 22 radiators, so it could be tennants have them up too high and don't notice the spitting/water hammer, the radiator supply valves are also leaking a bit, or more condensation with colder weather is occuring (or all of the above).

nicholas bonham-carter

What sort of main vents are on the system? They can spit as well.--NBC

cubicacres

A Gorton #2 on each of the short & medium length loops, with 3 #2's on the long loop. Since the long loop is about 10 minutes slower to heat the last radiator that the other 2 loops last radiators, we think we should add a few more to the long loop and see how 6 #2's work.

Fred

How long is that long loop and what is the diameter of that pipe? We all like plenty of venting but Six #2's is a lot. A good rule of thumb is about 1 Gorton #2 for every 20 feet of 2" main. What size it the tapping that you are mounting these Gorton's to? A 1/2" or 3/4" tapping won't even allow enough air to pass through it to accommodate six Gorton #2's. As a test, You can take the vent's off of that long main and start the boiler. When the header gets steam hot, go to the end of the main and time how long it takes for that main to get hot, at the end by the open pipe. That will be as fast as you could possibly vent that main. Add vents to that main until you get a time similar to the open pipe. Any number of vents above that is just wasted money.
How long are your two short mains? Maybe they don't need Gorton #2's on them and you can better balance the timing of your mains with a couple Gorton #1's on those mains, if they are short enough.

cubicacres

(See basement drawing of our 3 main loops attached) The long loop is about 70 feet long from the boiler to the last radiator, with about 30 feet of 1.25 inch dry condensate return pipe after that to make it back to the boiler: 4inch pipe the first 5 feet from the boiler riser, 3.5 inch the next 15 feet of pipe until each loop split-off, then 2 inch pipe the next 50 feet until the last radiator, then the 1.25 inch dry return back to the boiler.

For the open pipe steam approach timing test, do you mean just removing the Gorton #2 vents themselves, while keeping the 1/2 inch diameter 4-6 inch tall header & antler vertical pipe, removing that vertical header pipe the vent was attached to as well to leave the tapping hole in the main loop pipe, or trying to remove a section of 2 inch main loop pipe at a nearby union? If we could use a piece of thin paper to indicate steam movement, keeping the main connected would be easier, but just curious about the best way to get a baseline steam approach time for each loop.

We'll try the steam approach test, then see if adding vents to the long line will help, before reducing vents on the short & middle lines, if that's reccomended. Since the 2in diameter long loop pipe connects at the top of the 3in diameter middle loop pipe and is only 2in rather than 3in pipe of the middle loop, I can visualize the long loop having less steam attracting ability & most of the steam blowing by to stay in the larger 3in pipe (and a straight run) of the middle loop, so maybe we need to favor the long loop even more by reducing the short & middle loops venting a bit to favor the long loop? We have some Hoffman #75 vents we could swap with the short & middle loop Gorton #2 vents if needed for this balancing.

Fred

Just remove the antler the Gortons are mounted to for the open pipe test.

cubicacres

Sounds good. Should we just visually notice & hear some steam rising out of the tapping hole a few minutes after we fire up the boiler, or is there another method to verify the steam has reached the area?

Fred

When the steam get there, you will see it start to condense as it starts to blow out of the opening (like a tea kettle). Make sure you have someone near the boiler to turn the power off at that point, otherwise you will have a sauna.

cubicacres

Sounds good-thanks.

cubicacres

Getting back to the extra 2-4 gallon per week of water use, we found the 4in union connected to the main steam riser & one of the 3 inch unions on the drop-header under the insulation was leaking pretty fast (see attatched photos-about 3 drops per second when hot). The installers came back & tightened the 4in union twice before (once banging it with a hammer & once with a large wrench)-any thoughts on fixing stubborn union leaks that recur in a few weeks dripping faster than before?
Maybe the pipes needed a few months of run-time with expansion & contraction to settle down, or that 4in needed a longer nipple to make it less stressed since I thought it rose up an inch to meet the main riser when they joined them on installation day?

Fred

I'm glad you found the leaks. I'd get the installer back and have him fix it. It is possible those unions have some dirt/grit on the mating surfaces and don't seat properly or that they are simply defective.

cubicacres

We're working on it. It it usual to have several water & gas leaks the first year of a new steam boiler install? We're on attempt #4 to stop the leaks (both gas & water) so far, and anticipate more service calls the way things have been going.

Fred

Not typical but there could have been a bad run of fittings/unions. Some of us don't buy fitting from China because they tend to be problematic. Hard to tell what happened???

NewtoSteam2

Based on what I am reading here, I am assuming that the 91 gal that my boiler auto feed has allowed into the system since Jan 29th would indicate a major leak somewhere? There are no leaks that I can see in the system, so I am guessing that maybe the buried returns have sprung a leak?

Fred

91 gallons in two/three weeks would certainly indicate a significant leak. If not visable anywhere, most likely in the buried returns.

cubicacres

I think the unions & piping are all made in China on our new boiler now that you mention it. I remember asking the installers how modern installation are different form the prior 1982 boiler, and they said "Made in USA vs. China pipes".

Fred

cubicacres said:

I think the unions & piping are all made in China on our new boiler now that you mention it. I remember asking the installers how modern installation are different form the prior 1982 boiler, and they said "Made in USA vs. China pipes".

If they replace them, have them use Ward or some other American made fitting.

KC_Jones

cubicacres said:

I think the unions & piping are all made in China on our new boiler now that you mention it. I remember asking the installers how modern installation are different form the prior 1982 boiler, and they said "Made in USA vs. China pipes".

That's the installers choice. If they want USA fittings they can be had....easily.

ChrisJ

Didn't you have a problem early one with one of the unions being loose?

There's four unions on my boiler and none of them had issues even after 5 years now.

Sounds to me like they didn't have a wrench to fit them.

cubicacres

This is the 3rd time for the 4in union that goes up to the main, the first time for the 3 in union from a nearby drop-header that ruined our insulation.
The local utility used grey pipe sealant today on the gas leak at the new boiler (2nd time that union was leaking-he thought it was threaded wrong due to uneven insertion).
Tomorrow we'll see if the installer will replace them, or just adjust them again when we add those steam vents as well. Our 1 yr installation warranty goes until Nov 2017, so we'll see how many times they return when we notice issues. Dan H was right about installers seeming to be willing to return an unlimited number of times for service, when I would think it would be easier to do a long-lasting job once, and save 4+ service calls...

Fred

If it were me, I'd insist they replace those unions (and if they are Chinese, I'd tell them to put some American made ones on there). I think you mentioned in another post that they hit them with a hammer once before. That's not the way to tighten unions. I hear you on the warranty but even if they do continue to come back, it is still an inconvience to you. JMHO

cubicacres

They didn't have 2 wrenches large enough for the 4in union, so they'll be back in a few days...

Here's a picture of the added vents for the long loop we also did today with our plumber friend. 1/2 in antler on left side with 2 Gorton #2s, and 1.25in T reduced to 1in antler on right side of photo with 4 Gorton #2s & 1 Hoffman #75 on it. This should be close to full venting on that 1.25in dry return.

Is it ok if they aren't all facing the same way or aren't completely in the 12'o clock position for the top of each vent?

We moved that Hoffman #75 vent from the boiler room up 25 feet to be with other vents, since we didn't think it was doing much by itself back in the boiler room. The last radiator is here on left side of the photo.

Fred

That will work, IF the side of that antler that has the 2 Gortons on it is not pitched the wrong waay??? Looks like it might be pitched to the end on the antler. If so, You may need to put a couple 45's on the Tee and then the nipples so you can angle that end back towards the Tee.

ChrisJ

cubicacres said:

They didn't have 2 wrenches large enough for the 4in union, so they'll be back in a few days...

Here's a picture of the added vents for the long loop we also did today with our plumber friend. 1/2 in antler on left side with 2 Gorton #2s, and 1.25in T reduced to 1in antler on right side of photo with 4 Gorton #2s & 1 Hoffman #75 on it. This should be close to full venting on that 1.25in dry return.

Is it ok if they aren't all facing the same way or aren't completely in the 12'o clock position for the top of each vent?

We moved that Hoffman #75 vent from the boiler room up 25 feet to be with other vents, since we didn't think it was doing much by itself back in the boiler room. The last radiator is here on left side of the photo.

Didn't they do the same thing last time which is why they tried tightening one by hitting it?

cubicacres

Forgot about those 2 on the right needing the pitch back to the base of the antler...We'll follow up with that-thanks.

For the 4in union leak, they did hit it with a hammer the first time :-)
Then they tightened it with a wrench the 2nd time, then some more today, now agreeing they should replace it next time. I guess it takes 4-5 visits to fix a leak in Milwaukee steam applications? Come to think of it, we told the scheduling dept a few days ago that it was a 4in & 3in union, so wouldn't they tell the service tech that larger wrenches would be needed?

Abracadabra

ChrisJ said:

cubicacres said:

They didn't have 2 wrenches large enough for the 4in union, so they'll be back in a few days...





Didn't they do the same thing last time which is why they tried tightening one by hitting it?

LOL @ChrisJ I was thinking the same thing... What'd they expect to use to tighten a 4" union? Fingertips?

cubicacres

They replaced the 4in union yesterday. It didn't fit so well when they took it off-one side had space showing when they put the ends together & said that's how water was leaking out. The gas leak didn't bubble with their bubble yest, so they think they go that too (the gas ultility company fixed it before they came by threading it back on properly & adding a grey sealant since it was off by 2 threads on one side). We'll see if the 3in union is better from one revolution of tightining. Maybe they'll be back in a few weeks if we get colder weather.

What do common problems after a new install often appear as & how long after the install might some appear?

ChrisJ

I don't know. I installed my boiler and all the gas piping in the house in 2011. It was the first time I ever worked with threaded pipe. Only leak I had was a king valve that needed to be tightened after 5 years but no unions and definitely no gas leaks.

I honestly believe the problems you're having are from knuckle heads and are not normal.

Fred

As Chrisj says, I don't think these kinds of problems are normal at all. It's just sloppy workmanship on the installer's part when fittings are not threaded together right and they come back three or four times before they see they misaligned the threads.
Typical issues one would expect (not really problems, more expected final installation issues) would be the need to Skim the boiler several times to get all the oils/dirt out of the system, maybe rebalancing the system after new/working mains vents have been installed. Hopefully this round of adjustments fixes all your leaks for a long time. Best of luck!

cubicacres

Thanks. Finding a knowledgeable, local steam installer we have confidence in was/is difficult for us. We ended up studying as much as we could due to lack of confidence in most everyone we met over the last year. 18 different companies passed through our boiler room this past year for various repairs & the install. It was educational to hear how their opinions differed about our steam system-some told us we could make cooler steam (not hot water) at 150 deg. F for those warmer days, others told us we had a dual-pipe water system since we had 3 condensate return pipes in the boiler room & they saw the main line there (2-pipes, right?)

I appreciate this forum & all the help offered here by members. This has saved us from having a lot of problems & helped us spot several knucle-head contractor reccomendations.