System 2000 ?

Tom_133

So I want to start by saying I am not an oil guy. I am a hydronic guy but gas mainly. So one of my customers has a system 2000 in his home it's 3-4 years old and it's oil fired. He called me to say its vibrating like crazy, just started that this year, no changes to the boiler. So I told him to get it cleaned and tuned. He did, it still vibrating, worse. Now, he calls the company back and they come back out and remove some hangers which helped, though the boiler is still vibrating and it's translating through the house. His system does have air and does not have an air separator. My questions are anyone else ever deal with this? Also how does the black piece that the bypass and return go through work, is there a thermostat in there? The boiler pump is good. Thanks guys

STEVEusaPA

Exactly what's vibrating? The burner motor, circulator? Instead of removing the hangers, why didn't they remove the air and install an air separator. I would start with those 2 and then start looking for the vibrations. Air moving thru a flo check makes a racket.

Tom_133

Thanks Steve,
I am unsure whats vibrating. I was hoping it was a known problem that would get me going in a direction. I was curious if that black piece that the return goes into is like a thermostat to make sure RWT comes back above a certain point, it mixes the bypass supply with the return. Anyone know?

Robert O'Brien

Tom said:

Thanks Steve,
I am unsure whats vibrating. I was hoping it was a known problem that would get me going in a direction. I was curious if that black piece that the return goes into is like a thermostat to make sure RWT comes back above a certain point, it mixes the bypass supply with the return. Anyone know?

The sensor mounts in that "black piece" with a brass knurled nut, the input to the manager comes from that sensor.

rick in Alaska

Is it a combustion, piping, or possibly a power venter vibration? It is very common problem with power venters.
I would also make sure it was cleaned properly. It kind of sounds like either back pressure, a bad nozzle, or?????
Rick

Tom_133

Robert,

I agree, the bypass flows into it, the return flows into it, the sensor goes in it, the relief and hyvent. But is it just a hollow cast piece? What's in there?

Rick,

I agree with you as well, it is chimney vented so I am eliminating that, the vibration changes a bit when I open and close the bypass but that could be just because of flow.

Don't know, I will try to stop by and throw my combustion analyzer at it to see what the numbers are.

Robert O'Brien

Ghost of System 2000 and I'm not being humorous.

Roger

Tom (and all),

Thank you for your constructive thoughts on noise or vibration.

If the noise or vibration happens when the circulator is ON and the burner is OFF, flow causes should be reviewed. System 2000 does not have a check valve in the main circulator. The black manifold on the return with the "swirl" logo is the air elimination manifold; there are no obstructions or thermostats inside the manifold.

If the noise or vibration only occurs with the burner ON, or with the burner ON above a certain temperature, there is most likely a buildup of flux or minerals in the pressure vessel. We typically recommend flushing the vessel with a cleaner like TSP; sometimes it is good to let it circulate for several days to clean the system. Sometimes 8-Way boiler treatment can help. It depends on the cause of the sound. If the noise persists or if you want to clean it quickly for all root causes, the pressure vessel can be cleaned more aggressively, similar to a tankless coil - please contact our tech team for more information; these methods do not harm the vessel or components. For reference, if the noise is caused by some obstruction not allowing enough flow, this would have a high temperature rise from the boiler return (below the air elimination manifold where it enters the pressure vessel) to the supply; much more than 40F. The EK1 vessel has a flow path equivalent to a 2 1/2" pipe, so a substantial obstruction in the vessel would be quite unusual. Sometimes system debris can develop over time and migrate to the plate heat exchanger or the bypass causing flow issues.

As an additional note, if there is antifreeze in higher concentration (we recommend 30% max), or antifreeze without a anti-foam agent, that can also cause noises. We would recommend adjusting to the proper concentration; if the noise persists, cleaning per above is recommended.

In any case, please feel free to call our tech team. With some more details, they can make good recommendations for the right solution for your particular case.

Thank you,

Roger
President, Energy Kinetics, Inc.

billtwocase

Is it just me, or does it sound like he is referring to the plate heat exchanger?

billtwocase

I will add that their tech support is second to none. I had a puzzling problem Christmas Eve on one, and was steered in the right direction. Thank you Roger and your team of experts

Robert O'Brien

billtwocase said:

I will add that their tech support is second to none. I had a puzzling problem Christmas Eve on one, and was steered in the right direction. Thank you Roger and your team of experts

Ditto!

Tom_133

Thanks to all, this helps a lot. I will try to report back soon.

DanHolohan

Roger said:

Tom (and all),

Thank you for your constructive thoughts on noise or vibration.

If the noise or vibration happens when the circulator is ON and the burner is OFF, flow causes should be reviewed. System 2000 does not have a check valve in the main circulator. The black manifold on the return with the "swirl" logo is the air elimination manifold; there are no obstructions or thermostats inside the manifold.

If the noise or vibration only occurs with the burner ON, or with the burner ON above a certain temperature, there is most likely a buildup of flux or minerals in the pressure vessel. We typically recommend flushing the vessel with a cleaner like TSP; sometimes it is good to let it circulate for several days to clean the system. Sometimes 8-Way boiler treatment can help. It depends on the cause of the sound. If the noise persists or if you want to clean it quickly for all root causes, the pressure vessel can be cleaned more aggressively, similar to a tankless coil - please contact our tech team for more information; these methods do not harm the vessel or components. For reference, if the noise is caused by some obstruction not allowing enough flow, this would have a high temperature rise from the boiler return (below the air elimination manifold where it enters the pressure vessel) to the supply; much more than 40F. The EK1 vessel has a flow path equivalent to a 2 1/2" pipe, so a substantial obstruction in the vessel would be quite unusual. Sometimes system debris can develop over time and migrate to the plate heat exchanger or the bypass causing flow issues.

As an additional note, if there is antifreeze in higher concentration (we recommend 30% max), or antifreeze without a anti-foam agent, that can also cause noises. We would recommend adjusting to the proper concentration; if the noise persists, cleaning per above is recommended.

In any case, please feel free to call our tech team. With some more details, they can make good recommendations for the right solution for your particular case.

Thank you,

Roger
President, Energy Kinetics, Inc.

How's that for service? Thanks, Roger! Gosh, even on a Sunday.

Dan

Roger

Thank you to all for your kind words - our tech team greatly appreciates it and the opportunity to help as well!

For clarification, if there is a significant flow issue, the burner may turn OFF from the high limit control (in the supply) and the burner light may stay ON with a Digital Manager (return temperature based) while there is a heat demand. This is because the return temperature is not at operating limit temperature and the supply is hot, indicating low flow and a high temperature rise across the boiler.

In this case, the heating zone may not be open because the return temperature indicates the boiler is still cold/pre-heating. If zone valve is then opened and the supply and return temperature difference drops to about 40F or lower, that would indicate the bypass is operating at reduced flow and checking the plate heat exchanger (and bypass flow) first is a good idea.

For other conditions where there is some noise or kettling with a zone valve open, I would suspect the pressure vessel needs cleaning per my previous post.

Roger

Tom_133

UPDATE:

I was back at my buddy's house with the EK1, the vibration was out of control. So I reluctantly went out and bought a pound of TPS. I put it in and with just the bypass open and the zones off I circulated for 4-5 minutes. I fired the zones up and slap my face... that thing is perfect. I would have argued this point until I was blue, and would have been wrong. Thank you Roger, and all for the help.

rick in Alaska

Thanks for letting us know!
Rick

Roger

You're welcome, Tom - I'm glad it turned out to have such a quick resolution! I apologize for my delayed response from my travel schedule.

If you or other heating pros have questions, please also feel free to call our tech support hot line so we can help get you the answers you need quickly.

Roger

Solid_Fuel_Man

@Roger, is it recommended to leave the TSP in the system after this or flush it out and refill with clean water and some concentration of TSP? I know the spiral HX in the System2000 would be more susceptible to contaminants than a larger iron vessel. Thanks for your thorough instructions and explination!

SFM

Tom_133

Solid fuel man,

When I called in they said leave it in for a week then flush it. I then treated the boiler with rectorseal 8 in 1. That I believe was also recommended.

Roger

Thank you for your question, SFM, and for your answer, Tom. Yes, we do recommend flushing thoroughly after a week or two, plus adding 8-Way boiler treatment.

As a general comment, the passages in an EK1 (basic residential size boiler) are the equivalent of a 10 ft. long 2 1/2" pipe, so very low pressure drop and not easy to foul - we expect exceptional longevity and durability. If the vessel does have symptoms of mineral build up, it should be very cleanable without any adverse effects.