I"M Confused

William1

Old one line steam system,at the end of the main line, on the last long supply line, REMOVED air vent and opened the supply valve, no steam, no water , NO NUTHING... any ideas? (other RADS work)... thanks

nicholas bonham-carter

Was that the radiator vent you removed?
How many radiators are on this main?
1. Possibly, the pipe is too small, or
2. The pipe has a sag in it close to the end, trapping water, and steam, or
3. The venting of the closer radiators is so fast, that they have hogged all the steam.
4. Try closing the valves on the other rads to see if steam finally comes to the end.--NBC

BobC

If you try #4 listen to the open pipe to see if you hear any water sloshing around.

Bob

Fred

Are you 100% sure the boiler was running when you removed the vent and opened the valve? If it just ended a heating cyycle, there will be nothing.

Abracadabra

What pressure is the gauge showing at the boiler when you do this?

William1

The boiler is Weil-Maclein 3" mains, 25 ft. on the east run, 35 ft. on the west run. One relief valve Hoffman 76. Boiler bubble at halfway, pressure at .05 to .1, radiator's in back room, was re-tilted towards furnace. Never been insulated. In picture, main pipe is on the right side, last pipe is on the left to the cold room, Hoffman on top.

Abracadabra

William1 said:

The boiler is Weil-Maclein 3" mains, 25 ft. on the east run, 35 ft. on the west run. One relief valve Hoffman 76. Boiler bubble at halfway, pressure at .05 to .1, radiator's in back room, was re-tilted towards furnace. Never been insulated. In picture, main pipe is on the right side, last pipe is on the left to the cold room, Hoffman on top.

.1 PSI? If so you might need to raise the pressure a bit. Also insulate your mains so you get steam where you want it, instead of having it condense in the mains.

Fred

Is the Main, in the basement hot down at that end where that radiator run-out is? If not, what size vents do you have on the other radiators? It is possible they are so large that they are hogging all the steam. Even with the vent completely off of that last radiator, those other rads must still be the path of least resistence.

William1

Seems the Hoffman was changed about 12-15 years ago. should I just change the hoffman or add a few more main vents?

Fred

I would change out a 15 year old vent. Based on Main lengths of 25 and 35 feet, I would put 1 Gorton #2 or 2 Hoffman 75's on the 25ft main and either 2 Gorton #2's or three Hoffman 75's on the 35 ft run OR one Gorton #2's and one Hoffman 75 on the 35 ft. main. However, if it were just an issue with the main vents, that rad should have heated up when you took the vent off of it. I still think the other rads are hogging all the steam. Good main venting is the first step though.

William1

I don't think I was clear, this is one long line, boiler to wall , crossover, then the rest of the line. I do have enough room for an Irish elk.

William1

Next task is to insulate. seems fiberglass in 3 ft sections is the way to go. Is inch and a half that much better than one inch?

New England SteamWorks

I consider 1-1/2" extravagant, which is probably why I like it. But the pay-back sweet-spot is 1". 1" is also easier to install when you are trying to get into tight spaces and insulating the multiple fittings spaced closely together around the boiler. I'd rather see you use 1" and do all the fittings, than 1-1/2" just on the pipes.

William1

I plan to insulate pipe and fittings up to the floor. what is the best tape to use ?

Fred

Did they not send tape strips with the insulation? If you go to a local plumbing supply house, they typically carry rolls of a white reinforced tape, specifically for pipe insulation. If you can't find it locally, look at the site where you ordered your insulation.

William1

On the idea of 60 ft of 3" main (insulated) , was the Hoffman 76 enough vent in 1923? The H-76 is at the end of the main on top of a tee and should be moved a bit (how much?) also is it ok to mix and match different main vents?

New England SteamWorks

1. Interestingly enough, it was enough in 1923. Back then you had coal and it burned all day as opposed to the short (relative) cycles we now have. So the air only had to be chased out of the main when the coal fire died and was relit.
2. Ideally it should be moved back about 15", but this is usually never easy. The current location should be serviceable if you have at least a 1/2" tapping and can get it up high on an antler. A Y strainer helps. The purpose is to keep them out of harms' way, not performance.
3. Okay to mix and match vents.

William1

A big thank you to Nicholas, BobC,Fred,Abracadabra,Hatterasguy,Ri-steam works and the guys that read the comments and learned something new.

William1

Time to balance the system, does anyone have a chart or a reference on venting properties of various Rad vents ?

William1

When building an antler, is it best to use tees and fittings OR drill and tap some gas pipe ?

MarkS

William1 said:

Time to balance the system, does anyone have a chart or a reference on venting properties of various Rad vents ?

Get this definitive reference from the HH store. Best 10 bucks you'll ever spend, and the proceeds go to charity. http://store.heatinghelp.com/Balancing-Steam-Systems-p/300.htm

William1

I finally got the mains insulated with 1-1/2 (fittings too) then covered the last end line to the cold room (suprise those rads are nice and warm) started on balanceing the system , open all the rads, and the Lady says , check the rad at the top of the stairs its always cold, yes its cold the supply valve has failed closed, heat at the base and nothing thru the valve Question ?
Is there a repair kit for a 90 year old valve?... thanks

nicholas bonham-carter

You can remove the bonnet of the valve, and check the disk. If it has fallen off, then it could be blocking the valve seat. Repack when done.
Should be an easy fix.--NBC

ChrisJ

Many may disagree, but in my opinion the best fix for an old radiator valve is a hacksaw, cold chisel, pipe wrench and a spud tool.

Fred

The fact that the radiator is cold doesn't necessarily mean the valve has failed closed. Did you take the radiator loose and see the valve is failed or just an assumption? Other reasons could be a vent that is failed closed (if this is a 1 pipe system), or a radiator or supply pie that is pitched the wrong direction and holding water. If it is a failed supply valve, I lean towards Nicholas' solution of taking it apart and repairing it unless the valve body is cracked and beyond repair. Chris' "replacement" solution always works but that is a lot more work and may not be necessary.

ChrisJ

People that are afraid of work scare me.

I'm looking at you @Fred

Fred

ChrisJ said:

People that are afraid of work scare me.

I'm looking at you @Fred

LOL, I'm guilty of avoiding unnecessary work, Chris. A new valve looks nice but the original valves are also a treasure, at least for me. But I'm into the value of keeping as much of the historic fabric of a home as possible, especially if it is an easy fix.

JUGHNE

I have learned the hard way over the last 40 years that attempting to "fix" everything broken is not always necessary or wise and there is not always a lot to gain by replacing with new...unless there is a safety issue. This includes electrical, plumbing, AC, refrigeration, steam and HW.

Especially changing a valve on a one pipe rad. I would open it and make sure the disc is not plugging the passageways. Even remove the disc/washer completely. But repack the bonnet nut in any case. The valve is needed to be fully open almost 100% of the time. And if they seem to be working will not close 100%unless new. The missing parts could be pushed into the rad spud or fallen down the riser and wedged in the 90 under the floor.

Twice I have found remains of washers, discs and screws in the basement dirt leg of 1 pipe steam piping (80-90 years old). They could have come down 3 stories to get there. The smallest piping of their journey was a short 1 1/2" riser pipe. So you wonder how much other hardware is stuck in 90's etc

William1

Let me repeat, is there a repair kit for the supply valve... Thanks

KC_Jones

William1 said:

Let me repeat, is there a repair kit for the supply valve... Thanks

As far as I know there isn't a "kit". You need to diagnose what is wrong with the valve then go from there. If the disc fell off the stem you need to open it up and check for that. If it has fallen off can it be repaired? If not possibly just remove the disc for now and worry about it later. The valves typically don't work anyway and if the primary concern is to get it working that's how I would handle it. You can also repack the valve while you are servicing it.

gennady

I would remove bonnet of the radiator valve, leave it open and
fire the boiler. Check if steam is coming. If steam is coming
I would check the valve and if valve is good, i would install gorton 2 on the line just before the valve.
if steam is still not coming with pipe open i would check boiler input against installed edr. If boiler sizing is ok then i would do a good flushing and skimming of the boiler and system.

nicholas bonham-carter

Thank you Grennady for that good advice.
People seem to forget about the bonnet, and then disconnect the union nut, therefore having to move 200 pounds of radiator out of the way to have a look inside the valve. Following that, they then have problems reseating the union.
I always turn the bonnet backwards to seat the fine threads so as not to cross thread them.--NBC

Fred

Is there a kit? Not that I'm aware of but what I do is take the name of the valve (usually stamped on the valve body) and I take the disc out and take it with me to my local plumbing supply. with that disc and the brand name, they usually can give me a replacement. They do have packing materials too.

William1

Feet against the wall and pulling an eighteen inch wrench till I'm red in the face couldnt break the 90 year old supply shut off valve and paint seal. So I removed the union nut moved the Rad back about two feet , took a coat hanger and reamed the Rad then reamed the supply pipe (fun around the shut off valve)
Then still seperated ran the thermostat to (90) and what happen,
beautiful steam riseing from to valve body, reassembled with pipe dope, and a good slant, now waiting for a cool night to heat all 12 sections.

William1

I got 60 feet of 3 inch main, and I need to increase the venting, I have two hoffmans (75 and 76) and i,m wondering what is the number Gorton #2 to add...thanks

nicholas bonham-carter

You probably need 4 Gorton #2's, although you may want to investigate putting on a steam trap, as a vent open to atmosphere.
Ask Sailah about this possibility --NBC

Powens@barnesandjones.com

William1

thanks.. how do I contact Sailah?

Sailah

You rang?

ChrisJ

Like that.

Sailah

In terms of using thermostatic traps as vents, I'm going to say the jury is still out. I sent a vertical pattern trap with the largest orifice I had to a customer in NYC as a trial. He said it didn't vent any faster than the Gortons.

I've sent a selection to HatterasGuy for his testing purposes but have yet to hear back.

Based on what I understand, because of the low pressures being run in single pipe steam you need the largest orifice you can find and that doesn't really compute for inexpensive thermostatic steam traps. The largest orifice I can come up with is 5/16" but I think the Gortons can easily beat that.

Abracadabra

According to Gill/Pajek a 3/4" mepco 2E will vent at 3.160 vs. gorton #2 2.200 (cfm @ 3 oz)

I have tried using a bunch of mepcos I had come across at a clearance at my supplier as main vents. They work ok, but my only issue is the dripping. Have to pipe the discharge to a floor drain. I'm not 100% sure, but I also think they open quicker than the gorton #2s.