Internal Syphon Running High/Lennox Steam Boiler installed July 2015

JodiMe

Hi. I've got a world of problems since we had some guys come look at a leaky radiator. For some reason, the "knuckleheads" took the liberty in upping the pressure on the pressuretrol to cut-in 2+ and kept the differential at the original 1. When I later started reading "We Got Steam Heat!", imagine my anger when I saw that the very first subject touched on was NOT letting "knuckleheads" turn the pressure up! They also added too much water to the boiler. Since then we've had an incredible amount of water hammer. I haven't slept a full night in weeks. We're currently working on getting someone else in, but it's through our home warranty company so, you know...red tape and processes that take time.

We've since turned the cut-in back down to .5, which is what it originally was. However, we noticed a few nights ago that the internal syphon gauge on the boiler was running much higher than we'd ever seen it...as high as 8. We'd never seen it above 1.5-2. We've cleaned the pigtail, which was dirty with a few small clumps but not necessarily clogged. The next cycle still ran up to 8-8.5. We took the pigtail off again, cleared some dirtiness, but again, no clog or even clumps this time. We also checked the pin hole in the pressuretrol and it seemed to be clear. Before closing it up, we tested the on/off switch/beam inside the pressuretrol and it turned off the burner when tripped, so it seemed to be in correct working order. The next cycle ran up to 4-4.5, and seemed to settle there for a while. We didn't watch the full cycle, however, so it might have gone higher. But either way, shouldn't the burner have turned off at 1.5?

The pressuretrol was installed with the boiler this past July. The system seemed to work beautifully until the "knucklehead" messed with our settings and added too much water.

I have also noticed that the water in the sight glass, when the boiler isn't running, goes from looking pretty crystal clear on some days to fairly dirty on others. Even when the sight glass water is clear to start, it's pretty dirty during the cycle. Might dirty water have something to do with it??

I would love to have faith that knucklehead 2 is less of one, and maybe he is, but I would also like to try as much as I can in the meantime so as not to a. have continuing pressure issues and b. not have an insanely high gas bill this month.

Any help would really be appreciated!

KC_Jones

The pressure could just be a gauge reading erratically. The 0-30 PSI gauges that come with the boiler are generally useless and I personally wouldn't believe what it was reading. That being said it's never a bad idea to get a good low pressure gauge 0-3 PSI at most. This way you will know exactly what is going on. Until you have that it's anybody's guess, you could be cutting out at 1.5 could be higher hard to say for sure. The hammering could be from them overfilling things and getting water were it shouldn't be, but it should have worked itself out in short order if all your pipe pitches are correct. You should try and check the pitch of all the pipes in the basement to make sure they are allowing the condensate to drain out. Also make sure all the radiators are pitched properly. Is this a one pipe or 2 pipe system? That will dictate which way the rad should be pitched. Some pictures of your boiler and piping would also help in case there is something screwing there that could be causing issues. Where are you located? We may know a good steam man in your area.

Paul_11

good luck with any home warranty company knowing much about stream heat.

JodiMe

We are located in Cranford, NJ. Unfortunately the home warranty company gives us who they give us. I'm not sure if I could request someone or not, but if you've got someone to recommend, I can always try.

We've got a one-pipe system. And noted on the likely useless pressure gauge.

We checked the pitch on all the radiators last weekend and adjusted where needed and where we could. Our living room radiator is gigantic and we weren't able to get much height on it to put anything under. Also, we've replaced the air valves on all the radiators but one (we added wrong and keep forgetting to stop and get another one).

Like I said, the system was incredibly quiet and heated very well until they messed with it. In regards to the pitch of the pipes, if there were no prior issues to the condensate draining, why would we suddenly have issues with water draining?

I'll take some photos in the morning.

Paul_11

KC is right about the gauge and all else.
i always install a 3psi or 5 psi gauge and a vaporstat.
what is the square footage of your home and how many stories?i
in a single family one pipe steam system, you should be under 1 psi, but you would need to be master vented and all overheads would need to be insulated for this to work well.
I work in NYC but I drive past you on 78 every week on my way to PA.

so near and yet so far. HA

KC_Jones

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc
Great steam guy.
I understand about the warranty company, but the thing is (as you have already found out) if they don't know steam all they will do is come into your house and make things worse. Perhaps if you need more service you could politely educate the warranty company and explain that allowing the use of a steam contractor will ultimately SAVE THEM MONEY. Hopefully you don't have any real issues and it was just their mistake causing the problem. Overfilling would have put a large quantity of water in places it doesn't belong. Water hammer is the steam picking up water and "hammering" it into the next thing it encounters such as an elbow. The overfilling could have created this and it will go away after a while. I would give it a little time and see if it goes away on it's own, if it doesn't there may be other issues. The issues may be very simple so don't get too worried yet.

JodiMe

Hey Paul. So near indeed! I work in the city as well. House is 2 stories plus walk-up, minimally insulated but not drafty, attic. It's about 1400sqft.

When the cut in was .5 and differential 1, before all the fudging, it was a beautiful system that was mostly quiet and heated fast and nice and even.

JodiMe

Thanks, KC! It's been about a month at this point since we've been dealing with it. Somedays it's quieter than others, some days louder. Really no consistency.

But, I suppose the system hasn't run that full month since it was, after all, 75 degrees here on Christmas Eve and in the 60s for an entire week of the last month also.

KC_Jones

Wow a month of banging, yeah sounds like more is at play here. Since you say the boiler is new it could need skimmed. For reference I overfilled mine once by accident and after I dropped the water level it never banged not once. I am leaning towards needing skimmed. The overfill could have washed excess oil back into the boiler in addition to what was probably left from the install. This oil will cause surging in the water and suck water out of the boiler and into the mains causing the hammering. Skimming on a new install or when any pipes are replaced is critical. It's a long process, but fairly easy. I will reserve any further judgement until we see those pictures of the boiler and piping.

vaporvac

Paul said:

KC is right about the gauge and all else.
i always install a 3psi or 5 psi gauge and a vaporstat.
what is the square footage of your home and how many stories?i
in a single family one pipe steam system, you should be under 1 psi, but you would need to be master vented and all overheads would need to be insulated for this to work well.
I work in NYC but I drive past you on 78 every week on my way to PA.

so near and yet so far. HA

I may have misunderstood, but I believe the insulation mentioned is that on you steam mains, not your attic. Uninsulated mains can lead to banging, but this is probably related to oily water as mentioned. It takes a lot of skimming to get it all out on a new install. You can do it yourself, btw.

JodiMe

I like hearing that we can do it ourselves. GREAT answer.

Here's some photos. The screwdriver is for pitch reference. But maybe I should have used a level instead?

JodiMe

One last photo...guess it didn't load. The other side of the pipe...

BobC

I think @KC_Jones was right on the money when he suggested a good skim. When those buffoons overfilled the system they brought all kinds of stuff down from the piping and that has fouled the boiler water.

The side boiler outlet that has the plug in it is your skim port. Remove that plug (boiler off and not steam hot) and put a bucket under it. Feed water into the boiler very slowly and the level will slowly rise up and begin to trickle out of that port - you want that stream smaller than a pencil. Now turn the heat on and let that boiler heat up BUT DON'T LET IT BOIL - you want a hot calm surface on the water. you want to remove several buckets of water over the course of several hours. When your done, drain the boiler down to it's normal level and put that plug back in.

Turn thee heat on and bring it up to steam, see if that auiets things down. This skimming will probably have to be done a ew more times over the coming days and weeks.

Don't depend on your eyes, use a level on those pipes.

Bob

JodiMe

Hi Bob. Thanks for the step by step. By "plug", do you mean the 2 1/2" thing (see photo)? Assuming I get that off with a wrench of some sort?
Also, how do I get the boiler hot without it boiling? And how do I know it's NOT boiling? Sound? Or is there a temp gauge somewhere that I'm missing?

Also, took a couple pics of a level on the pipes.

BobC

I was referring to the steam outlet of the boiler, that should come apart easier than the plug on the other side.

While we're at it both boiler outlets should have been used when that boiler was installed, Dunkirk style boilers are fussy when it comes to near boiler piping but for now lets concentrate on getting the water cleaned up.

Bob

JodiMe

Great. Thank you.

And about the hot water but not boiling...how can I control/monitor that?

We had planned on doing the skimming today but we woke up to a leaking foundation crack that had to be tended to. If it's not one thing it's another! Ay yi yi.

BobC

About a decade ago we had a torrential rain in late Feb when the ground was still frozen. One good thing about living at the shore is it;'s all sand so the water always finds someplace to go other than the cellar.

A buddy stopped by after work for a drink when we got a call from his wife that the cellar was filling up, they live up on a hill in an area laced with underground streams. By the time we got there there was almost foot of water, the water was squirting up from under the slab. We were wading around the cellar trying to fix the sump pump that had blown an elbow on the discharge when the fire dept showed up with a 2" gas powered pump.

Luckily the boiler was up on cinder blocks but the base of that boiler warmed up all that water so it was like walking in a bathtub.

Bob

JodiMe

Yikes! Our leak was minor, but continuous. I'm guessing that when the last sellers of this house removed the oil tank, they filled it with something porous rather than soil. The location is too coincidental.

Back to the skim. How do we keep the water hot but not boiling? Is there a way to control or monitor that?

BobC

Turn the thermostat up high and control the boiler with the power switch.

BTW because the oil burner and wiring never went under water that steam boiler survived it's wetting just fine.
Bob

JodiMe

When we put the plug back on, do we use teflon tape?

JodiMe

Wait. I got too far ahead. We can't even get the plug to budge to get it OFF. Any tips?

BobC

Teflon tape and or pipe compound will make it possible to get that plug out again later and they will seal the threads against leakage. Iron fittings have a way of welding them selves in place if you don't do something to discourage it.

Bob

JodiMe

This plug definitely has both compound and tape on it, but we can't get it to move. I've even tried standing, full weight, on the wrench handle.

BobC

Being a recent install I had hoped it might come without a fight.

It may take a 3 ft wrench with a 3 ft pipe on that. Just be careful it doesn't slip and hurt someone.

Bob

JodiMe

That's a whole lot of leverage! I guess it'll have to wait until tomorrow so we can buy (and then likely return) the parts. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for the fast responses and help!

KC_Jones

What size (length) wrench are you using? And remember you need to use 2 wrenches on any pipe fitting, one to loosen the fitting and another on the other fitting to hold back.

JodiMe

Noted on the 2 wrenches, KC. Thank you.

The wrench we've got right now is only a 14". I had hoped that since it was only installed 6-7 months ago that it wouldn't be too difficult. But nothing seems to be easy in this little house of mine!

KC_Jones

Generally you use 12" of wrench for every inch of pipe. 12" for 1" pipe, 24" for 2" pipe etc. You have 2 1/2" pipe (I think) so you will need a 36" for sure especially for the hold back wrench on that tee fitting. The smaller wrenches usually won't even open up far enough. It's all about leverage.

JodiMe

Noted. At this point, I'm wondering if it's easier to have knucklehead #2 just do the skimming. A quick search shows our local big box stores don't even carry wrenches this size. I can make a few calls to some local plumbing supply stores tomorrow though.

KC_Jones

Knucklehead might not even know what skimming is....but you could try. Or you could print out this post and give him the directions.

JodiMe

Well apparently he teaches about steam boilers. So let's hope he knows...

JodiMe

Out of curiosity, we've got some radiator valves that don't open/close...the handle just turns and turns... Anyway, those will be replaced as soon as we can get them in to do the work. Could those be causing the water hammer if they're stuck in some position other than fully open? Or does everyone still suspect it's the boiler water?

Dave in QCA

If the valve is stuck in a partially closed position it could cause water hammer.

JodiMe

Well, we've got a new company assigned (Ryan & Co, as I requested after I found here) because knucklehead #2 was acting like a, well, knucklehead and causing problems with the warranty co. Unfortunately DL Mechanical wouldn't work with them. So I'm hoping that all our issues will be good and I'll FINALLY be able to sleep one day soon... Thanks for all the help, everyone! Hopefully I won't be back too soon.

JodiMe

Good news, everyone. We finally had the boiler skimmed, the returns flushed, the main vent replaced as well as some valves and a leaky radiator replaced. And everything is quiet as a mouse. Thanks for all your help along the way! I would highly recommend Ryan and Co out of Morristown, NJ....