Opinions

Rich_49

What does everyone think of these pictures ?

Uponor Hepex , Zurn crimp rings , stop and waste valves for radiant manifolds . Mixing Valve for radiant , 5 circs on the returns from those circuits .

Zurn manifold used where customer could readily see .
Will Uponor ever honor a warranty if one of these connections is compromised ?
Cast iron boiler (WM) , exhaust only 10" above grade on an inside corner (18" away) .

Gordy

Even though it's funar, and beside the point does it work? Why were you called in?

Tinman

I don't know for sure but my money would be on Uponor not approving of those fittings.

Its not the worst I've ever seen. This is what I was dealing with yesterday. 60 year old manifolds buried behind a cast iron boiler getting mixed water temps from a locked square head cock.

Grrrrr!

REHAU does approve of those crimp fittings.

Rich_49

Seems our radiant expert did not quite know how to zone for effectiveness . 2 baths and 2 attached bedrooms on same zone . Larger room will not reach setpoint , usually helps to know how that all works . Thermostat placement , balance issues .
Here is the main problem , you asked , " Does it work ? " . I would have to say yes to the simple question . We all know that reaching and staying above the heat , no heat line does not necessarily mean it is right . These folks want right and heat in every room , there are comfort issues .
Is using all the wrong stuff while still delivering heat alright ? These folks decided upon radiant for the same reasons everyone else does , efficiency and comfort .
Problem I am faced with now is to make the areas they have problems with work RIGHT I will really F up the areas that SEEM to be OK at present .

@Stephen Minnich
Is that before and after ?

Tinman

It is.

njtommy

If they are having problems already this year NJ and other states have been really warm. I can't see this being a new issue. I beat they froze their butts off last winter.

SWEI

Uponor does not have to approve the fittings, they just won't warranty the connection. The tubing meets the ASTM spec for SDR9 PEX, so the fitting manufacturer will have honor whatever their warranty is on the fittings.

OTOH if you were to connect PEX-b to an Uponor F1960 fitting, the tubing spec does not meet the fitting manufacturer's requirements (additional ASTM spec for PEX-a) so they would not have to honor their warranty on the fitting.

Gordy

Rich the reason I asked if it works, is no more than to make people realize that a working system has a broad range of definition. "It works"

Most of us know what the real meaning of how a system should work. While other so called "experts" would not. As you pointed out with the reasons you were called in "comfort" has meaning to most. A side the incompatible hardware mess.

Hilly

I can't say with 100% certainty but I called Uponor once and asked the above questions. I believe they stated that they will warranty their pipe up to 12" of another manufacturers fittings. But they did say, as stated above, we are SDR9 piping made to standards so technically all fittings designed for SDR-9 are approved but we have to strongly recommend you use our products exclusively to protect you and your clients in event of a warranty situation.

ChrisJ

I'm not a pro as Rich knows so cut me some slack, but why would anyone ever use anything other than Uponor's expanding system? The crimp type connections have never looked good to me and the only type of pex I'd ever use in my own home is Uponor.

But, maybe I'm just ignorant on the subject.

SWEI

ChrisJ said:

why would anyone ever use anything other than Uponor's expanding system?

PEX-b is cheaper and easier to find. F1807 crimp fittings are cheaper and easier to find. Sadly, a majority of tradespeople and supply houses just can't see past cheap.

One other factor: The old Uponor hand expanders were expensive and frankly a PITA to use, especially in tight spaces and on larger diameters. The power tools were really expensive and used proprietary batteries. Until Milwaukee jumped into the power expander tool market (late 2010), F1960 cold expansion required a real commitment on the part of the installers.

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

ChrisJ said:

why would anyone ever use anything other than Uponor's expanding system?

PEX-b is cheaper and easier to find. F1807 crimp fittings are cheaper and easier to find. Sadly, a majority of tradespeople and supply houses just can't see past cheap.

One other factor: The old Uponor hand expanders were expensive and frankly a PITA to use, especially in tight spaces and on larger diameters. The power tools were really expensive and used proprietary batteries. Until Milwaukee jumped into the power expander tool market (late 2010), F1960 cold expansion required a real commitment on the part of the installers.

I found my dad an expander for Christmas a few years ago. It's an older manual one I hunted down for him as his house is all pex a. Even used they cost a fair amount.

I don't know if he's used it yet, but he was happy to have it in case he needs it.

hot_rod

ChrisJ said:

I'm not a pro as Rich knows so cut me some slack, but why would anyone ever use anything other than Uponor's expanding system? The crimp type connections have never looked good to me and the only type of pex I'd ever use in my own home is Uponor.

But, maybe I'm just ignorant on the subject.

What about Uponor manifolds that use compression fittings? I don't think Uponor makes the manifold or fitting?

I agree with Kurt, if the tube and fitting are compatible you are good to go.

Anyone have experience with copper crimp ring failures on Uponor tube?

I remember some of the hassle with expend tube connections made in cold conditions and not being able to hold an air test as the rings would not seal.

The barbed fitting and copper crimp ring has an excellent track record, on all the various PB and PEX tubes.

Rich_49

Uponor will not honor warranty near the connection if other than a Uponor fitting is used , you may get away with the Sioux Chief equivalent .

Did see several modular homes in the early 2000s where the manufacturer used others fittings and crimp rings . Joints were popping left and right . Problem is that the fittings by others are too small in diameter . Uponor will honor the warranty on their tubing but every joint in this house will leave the user on an island when it comes to factory support , as it should be if the failures happen at that location . This is the only place I would expect to see a failure in this home . To my knowledge there is not a single PexA product that would be alright with a crimp ring , if this were alright , they'd make it . Rehau's Everlok , Mr Pex's APR style and Uponors cold expansion type joining system have nothing in common with any crimp ring . Compression joints excluded .

How do we all think these stop and waste valves will hold up in a high head system , especially since it appears that they were used for balancing ?

SWEI

Read the ASTM numbers off the tube. Compare PEX-a with PEX-b. The fitting manufacturer owns the warranty on the connection.

hot_rod

Rich said:

Uponor will not honor warranty near the connection if other than a Uponor fitting is used , you may get away with the Sioux Chief equivalent .

Did see several modular homes in the early 2000s where the manufacturer used others fittings and crimp rings . Joints were popping left and right . Problem is that the fittings by others are too small in diameter . Uponor will honor the warranty on their tubing but every joint in this house will leave the user on an island when it comes to factory support , as it should be if the failures happen at that location . This is the only place I would expect to see a failure in this home . To my knowledge there is not a single PexA product that would be alright with a crimp ring , if this were alright , they'd make it . Rehau's Everlok , Mr Pex's APR style and Uponors cold expansion type joining system have nothing in common with any crimp ring . Compression joints excluded .

How do we all think these stop and waste valves will hold up in a high head system , especially since it appears that they were used for balancing ?


If the insert fitting was out of tolerance, then the crimp ring is not the fault of a failed connection. Same with a compression fitting.

A compression style fitting is not all that different from a crimp ring in that the nut puts the tension on the ring around the tube, not the crimp tool. Pretty much every tube manufacturer offers compression fittings and manifold connections.

Regardless, if it is piece of mind you want stick with the manufacturers components, or their written approved equal.

I'm not a fan of the cinch ring type pex clamps. They seem to load a lot of stress right at the pinch point and not equally around the tube. They are fine for low pressure and vacuum hose connections, seems that is what they were designed for, not stiff walled PE tubing.

The stop and waste valves were not a great choice for radiant loops, but a clever way to bleed a loop.

4Johnpipe

This is another example of a customer paying and willing to pay top dollar for a top dollar job...They did not get what they payed for. We will get some pictures of the house next week. Its a really cool house (sprawling ranch style) on the Manasquan River. Every detail from the floor finish to wall finishes were provided pre construction...It really is a shame...

Gordy

Funny @4Johnpipe you would think from the looks of it a DIY did it with what ever they could find.