Newbie with partial working steam boiler

jmichalski0604

Hello, I must apologize as I'm new to this whole arena. My wife and I purchased a home in the past two months which was built in the prior to 1920 and has a HydroTherm steam boiler, picture attached. We've had a number of different experts out to help with the fact that only some of the radiators get warm, for a minimal period of time, and not all the way across. I'm looking for advice on how to proceed to possibly check for problems myself and am happy to provide whatever other information is needed. One of the experts supposedly cleaned out and tuned the boiler while another leveled all of the radiators. Both were supposed to solve the problem. Of course, we still only partially have heat.

I have two main vents in the basement, looks to be off of two runs. One is a Hoffman 45 and the other a Dole 5, picture of latter attached. I don't believe that these actually work b/c I have never heard them releasing stem. I know that they once worked b/c there are rust stains against a wall near one of the vents. Our boiler also short cycles, a lot, which is why i think that some of the radiators get warm... pressure builds for a little bit but then shuts off. Lastly, there's a thermal fuse on the bottom of the front of the boiler that trips very often. It happened about a month ago and just again yesterday. It goes a couple of hours where it'll trip each time the boiler tries to fire and then, for some reason, after the last reset it just allows the boiler to run.

Our system has been noted as a modified two pipe system. All of our radiators have either the two pipes, one on each side one for steam supply and another condensate return, or one pipe steam supply with a tee off of that supply for condensate return, picture attached. I'm trying to see if I can't fix some of the problems myself and, after doing a bunch of looking, have a couple of ideas on where to start. I'd like to see if anyone has any other suggestions or whether I might be on the right track:

1) I'd like to replace the two main vents. I with a rep at Gorton who quickly ran through my system and recommended the Gorton #1 as a replacement for the Hoffman and Dole. I'd like to replace b/c I don't think that they work and, from what I understand, the Gorton is much more effective than the current two.
2) One or our radiators actually has a busted valve that needs to be replaced, picture attached. The handle, stem and all, comes right out and you can see right into the pipe.
3) At least one of our true two pipe radiators has an air vent on it which I believe I need to remove and plug.
4) A couple of our one-pipe modified radiators do not have air vents on them, which I think that they need.

So, can anyone let me know if you think these would be a good start? Is there anything else that I should look into? Do you think that fixing these could help resolve the tripping fuse? One of the so-called experts mentioned that this could be tripping due to a blocked flue, the boiler sensing that it's re-buring its exhaust and shutting off before creating too much CO.

Thanks, in advance, for your time and assistance.
-Joe

jmichalski0604

sorry but my pics didn't upload

Steamhead

That first picture is very interesting. I've never seen a hookup like that on a steam system- anyone out there seen anything like it? Did you see a name on the valve? Is there a steam trap in the return line under the floor? What, if anything, is on the return connection of the other radiator you posted?

And most importantly, where are you located?

JUGHNE

Could you post a picture of the "thermal fuse", do you have to push a button to reset it or does it reset automaticity?
Where are you located? I think you need a steam pro.

jmichalski0604

Steamhead, Thank you for the interest. I'm in St. Charles, IL a suburb of Chicago. All of the modified two pipe radiators have that same valve. The only name I can get off of any of them is "Detroit" but there's nothing else distinctive. The other, busted, valve is a Hammond. It seems as though all of the true two-pipe radiators have that one.

This is about where my knowledge stops. Great, isn't it? I don't know what a steam trap looks like or what I should be looking for but there isn't anything tied into any of the supply/ return pipes. They simply go down into an accessible basement and return to the boiler. I attached a copy of the second set of radiators I have. Some are as you saw, this modified, and others are the true two pipe.

Jughne, thanks as well. I attached a copy of the fuse. When it trips, it has to be manually rest (pressed.) Yes, it is a push button. I got the name from the instruction manual so might not be what it is. We had a steam pro come out but, truth be told, was looked at with some general comments. The main vents he agreed with; I brought up the broken valve; he didn't mention anything about the steam vents. He said it would be $1k- $2k for a full evaluation of the system and then we'd have to go for repairs from there. I want it fixed but that's just not in the budget. The rep from Gorton actually turned me onto this site, touting the available knowledge base and the people. I'm going through the articles but figured that I'd post the problem.

Basically, I'm looking for a bit of a better starting point as it sounds like my pro's option is a shot in the dark.

Steamhead

If you haven't already- and it doesn't sound like you have- you need to have Dave "The Steam Whisperer" Bunnell look at this thing. Go here:

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/the-steam-whisperer-boiler-professionals-inc

You might have to wait a bit since he's pretty busy. Tell him Steamhead says he's gotta see this system.

Do you know about when this system was installed, or when the house was built?

JUGHNE

When your boiler lights does the fire seem to roll out the front towards you as you watch it? You may not have a good chimney draft. Something the boiler cleaning should have fixed, if you talk to Dave tell him your flame roll out limit trips and you must manually reset it until maybe the draft is established. (And be sure to tell him you have a system that even Steamhead hasn't seen.

Steamhead, would you call that a steam valve combo drip line radiator connection???

Steamhead

JUGHNE said:

(And be sure to tell him you have a system that even Steamhead hasn't seen.

I'm sure there are lots of those!

JUGHNE said:

Steamhead, would you call that a steam valve combo drip line radiator connection???

Not sure. The name "Detroit" was Detroit Lubricator Co, which at some point became part of American Radiator Co. It looks like that's a standard Vapor valve which is screwed into that special fitting. I checked my collection of Ideal Fitters (American Radiator Co. catalogs) and that fitting wasn't in any of the ones I have. This may be a rather local variation of Vapor heating.

DanHolohan

Steamhead said:

That first picture is very interesting. I've never seen a hookup like that on a steam system- anyone out there seen anything like it? Did you see a name on the valve? Is there a steam trap in the return line under the floor? What, if anything, is on the return connection of the other radiator you posted?

And most importantly, where are you located?

There's a tube coming off the valve that reaches into the radiator. The steam enters through the tube, and the condensate leaves the radiator by draining out from around the tube and down that inner pipe.

Steamhead

Right. I was thinking it might be a steam version of the Honeywell Unique hot-water valve. Do you know who made it?

DanHolohan

Exactly. I don't know who made it, but I've seen it.

jmichalski0604

Gentlemen, thank you all. I'll keep Dave in mind. My wife and I are also waiting on someone else, a friend of a friend, who's been in the steam industry for many years. I appreciate the feedback. We have a separate issue with the chimney, no liner and bad cap, that we're looking at getting fixed.

All I can tell you gentlemen is that the house was built circa 1910. I'm not sure when the system was installed. As for the flaming, it doesn't exit the boiler. It does appear as though it's burning "hard" which I think is the reason behind the fuse tripping. It also gets extremely hot down in the basement.

One of the people who looked at the boiler noted that it has the wrong type of pressure gauge on it, one for water so it's hard to tell the system PSI. Basically, I was hoping that piecing together these "minor issues" like the main vents and the valve would be the first step to getting the system to work a bit better.

No matter what, I'm glad I could give you guys a view into something you've never seen before It's all new to me.

jmichalski0604

BTW, Dan, I'll be purchasing "The Lost Art of Steam Heating." The rep at Gorton highly recommended it. So, it's nice to "meet" you.

DanHolohan

jmichalski0604 said:

BTW, Dan, I'll be purchasing "The Lost Art of Steam Heating." The rep at Gorton highly recommended it. So, it's nice to "meet" you.

Thanks! So glad you found your way here.

vaporvac

I know you spoke to a rep at Gorton but I doubt his recommendation of a gorton #1 is going to fly. It may be a replacement for what you have, but it's not nearly enough for todays boilers that need to expell all the air with every cycle (as opposed to coal that was basically always on to some degree.) The general rule is one Gorton #2 for each 20 ft. of main depending on its diamet. If you have a VERY large system there are a few other alternatives.

I'm sure if your friend's friend is a REAL steam expert he'll be familiar with this site and DaveB. He's one of the tops.

Steamhead said:

Not sure. The name "Detroit" was Detroit Lubricator Co, which at some point became part of American Radiator Co. It looks like that's a standard Vapor valve which is screwed into that special fitting. I checked my collection of Ideal Fitters (American Radiator Co. catalogs) and that fitting wasn't in any of the ones I have. This may be a rather local variation of Vapor heating.

That's interesting. I have some valves that say "Detroit Specialty" and all my rads are AR. Were they made by Detroit Lubricator Co.? Of course, I also have some of the original Trane valves and a few Hoffmans.

Robert O'Connor_12

The rollout switch would be of great concern to me. Be sure you have a quality 110 volt carbon monoxide detector near by. There are many reasons why they trip, but most I see are either due to a leak or mostly due to lack of combustion air. I too have never seen that valve before.
Good luck!

Robert O'Connor/NJ

JUGHNE

So that valve/fitting would allow you to have a 2 pipe system and use the tradition 1 pipe rads? Those with no across the top connection? No trap or drop down into a wet return. Pictures of that piping in the basement below one of those rads would tell a lot.

DanHolohan

Yes.

jmichalski0604

Vaporvac, thanks. I'll be speaking with him tomorrow. I realize that it might not be the best, or what we need, but i figured that I'd get a replacement for what we already have as the vents just don't seem to be working at all. While maybe undersized, new should be better than old/ busted. He mentioned that I might need a manifold with additional vents but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Robert O'Connor, Thanks for the idea. That is definitely a concern and one that we're looking to rectify. We replaced all the CO detectors when we moved in and added a few more. We have two, not in the same room but in two rooms above it. That's just below our stairway to the second floor and we have yet a third at the top of the stairs.

Steamhead and Vaporvac, I wish I could tell you who made the radiators. They look like they've been painted over at least twice (which I'm hopeful of blasting in the next two years.) I've attached a couple more pictures showing the setup:

- The first picture is of the set of pipes that go to a bedroom upstairs.
- The second and third are a collection of pipes that also go upstairs. I'm still trying to make sense of it all but they have multiple branches.They serve two different radiators upstairs.
- The last one is also some of the piping for an upstairs radiator (one that doesn't work actually.)

Not going through every single radiator but at least three of the ones that I see straight away, the ones with the modified two pipe entering, actually have the plug on the opposite side which should be able to accommodate the second pipe.

Steamhead

The "modified" radiators were probably piped that way for convenience. It's easier to do it that way then to rough-in piping on both sides.

I don't see any steam traps in the piping. Unless there's something in that special fitting, or there are traps that can't be seen in the pics, this is probably an "orifice" or "Tudor" system. This type of system kept steam out of the dry returns by adding an orifice at each radiator inlet, so the steam could not reach the return connection as long as the pressure was held below a certain point. Those Detroit Vapor valves did have orificing built-in.

Here is a discussion of the Tudor system. It was popular in Europe, where Mr. Tudor didn't control the patents. The piping details can vary but the basic principle is the same:

https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/european-heating-systems-circa-1907/

And, what the others say about the roll-out switch that keeps tripping.

jmichalski0604

Will get reading.

jmichalski0604

Gentlemen,

I wanted to provide you with an update. I was able to speak with that friend of a friend and am waiting for a visit. In the meantime, after discussing the issues, I have replaced the two main steam vents and have also replaced the broken angle valve on the one radiator (the one whose handle simply pulled out.) This seems to have done the following:

- Main steam vents, which were previously doing nothing are now venting a bit of air (slow and quiet.)
- Radiators which were previously not heating are now heating, partially.

Unfortunately, this seems to have switched the layout of the house. There seem to be two zones, off of one main steam pipe, call it back side and front side. Previously, the front would get hot but nothing would go to the back. Now, the back is getting hot but most of the front is not.

I'm trying to plow through the Tudor system but that's well above my "paygrade." I'll start looking through the archived forum about slow main venting (maybe as Vaporvac mentioned I don't have enough venting for the system as a whole, or even the one side.)

I have yet to call The Steam Whisperer. Budget as it is, having multiple visits already, I'm trying to troubleshoot what I can.