One Pipe Parallel Flow w/ 2 Mains-No Steam From One Open Ended Main

Fred

This will get fixed and you will be one happy camper!

KC_Jones

lincolntaggart said:

@Hatterasguy I have mine at 6 inches. Like @fred. Water is pushing thru Hartford loop because it's too low. Too much water going into return and flooding main. Then goes off on low water.



It appears sensible on paper because it resolves all symptoms. Low water, dirty return water rising up wet return, no steam



Gotta try. Chalk it up. Update tomorrow

With the symptoms you are seeing doing anything with that Hartford loop piping would be a complete waste of time. You have a pressure differential causing the water to back up plain and simple. Since the boiler has equalizer piping the only way you could have a differential at the end of the main like you have (with the pipe open) is if there was a blockage somewhere separating the 2 sides. The boiler (with equalizer piping) has the same pressure on the feed and return, the wet return height is to add water weight to keep the boiler from pushing all the water out. Yours is pushing the water out through the return line. The only way I can see it doing that is if there isn't any pressure on the feed side to keep it in the boiler. In addition with that pipe open like you had it that would most likely bleed all the pressure off the boiler and the water would drop in the wet return not rise. Again you are seeing a pressure differential. From what I am reading and seeing in your pics this sounds like a blockage of some sort. Are you absolutely bet the farm sure that there wasn't a rag accidentally left in a pipe?

Fred

He's got a ball valve on that Hartford loop. My suggestion was for him to close that and start the boiler. If the short main gets hot, like the long main already does, then he'll know there is no blockage in that main and the problem has to be there around that wet return/hartford loop. If it doesn't he may well have a blockage. That is a test that will take 5, maybe 10 minutes and eliminate at least one potential issue. All of his new pipe is near boiler and we know his riser out of the boiler isn't blocked because the long main does heat. That would leave the possibility of a rag left in the riser to the short main or in the header going to the equalizer/equalizer pipe, above the Hartford loop. It is a process of elimination at this point.

nicholas bonham-carter

Take note of Jaimie's remark about the possibility of some part of the wet return being now so close to the normal boiler waterline, that when firing, the pressure will try to fill it up, thereby depleting the boiler water.
The other possibility is that water is being blown out the risers and up into the mains, so that also the boiler is left empty.
Try the clear tube test, and see how high your wet return water level is under steam.--NBC

BobC

Note the old system used both side tappings, on Dunkirk style boilers both tappings should always be used. This style of boiler has to be piped just so if you want it to work right. Also the liberal use of pipe joint compound suggests there may be a lot of it inside the boiler.

Normal skimming will take forever to clean all that up, use washing soda like they suggest in the old Peerless manuals. I would seriously suggest using both tappings if you want that boiler to work right.

Bob

lincolntaggart

Friday Update:

I went over tonight after running service today. I got what I could from what was still open on Friday at 7pm. So, don't be talking **** on my black iron fittings. Btw, this is off the clock because I take pride in what I started and Im gonna get it corrected. and I my boss has to pay me- well id rather stay away from that convo.

Plus, I love it. That's why im talking to you, right? Attached is a pic of my first one from last year. Let me get that "at a boy" lol
Its my favorite picture.- I realize whats wrong now...but Its still my favorite.

Having said that...

I removed the 3 90s in the beginning of the run because:

It was sort of "too level" and was there some obstruction to be found? See pictures

No. Nothing. I can see ( with my 960 lumen ) I can see to end of 26 foot. All the way to tee. Im glad to cross that off the list.

Fire it up. Same. Long run gets hot normal. The short run appeared to have more air pushing out 3 Hoffman 75s now.

( Remember, I was moving a total of six hoffmans around in an attempt to balance two mains. But I gave up on that, for now. Because I am just trying to get the steam to the end. forget balancing.

And I can not get it to end of short main, even with full port ball valve open at the end.

So anyway, I decided then to down fire the Bryant because of all the Dunkirk comments in an attempt to calm all the turmoil.

Maybe, there is too much velocity because I only have one riser...?

I dunno, but after I down fired it I finally stayed on for 20 minutes of so. I did not go off on low water.

The whole time small amounts of air continued to push out 3 hoffmans. Until,...It seems like the long runs rads were all to temperature and could not take any more steam.

Then, finally like 20 minutes later, air the air pushed out of short run and it got to 212 degrees....the runouts got to 212 degrees...and I could see on thermal rads beginning to get colorful. Rad vent suck here, so that's a different problem. But I have heat there now.

So, I also have the short runs entire wet return at 205 degrees until it meets back up with other wet return and mixes. then it lowers temp a little.

Why is wet return full of steam?

Why does on side of house need to get happy before short side even attempts?

Why do I have to down fire boiler so much?

I didn't re-skim after making repairs, but that's not the issue, right?

Steamhead

Sure those are the right pics? That's a Weil-McLain boiler, not a Bryant/Dunkirk.

But the transition from the header to the equalizer on that W-M is wrong. That concentric reduction is letting water build up in the header, which would really screw up steam flow as well as cause water hammer.

lincolntaggart

@Steamhead weil-mclain are from my first install. Nvm that. Any insight on remainder of my post?

Steamhead

That's a much neater job. But if it's still messing up, it didn't solve anything.

Double-check the pitch on the short main for its entire length. Minimum pitch is 1" in 20', more if available.

Then make sure the water can actually drain out of the main. Disconnect the return line near the boiler and hook up a hose to the main vent connection. Then turn the hose on and see that the return connection is indeed open. If you get a good flow, it's open.

If the return line is open from the steam main all the way back to the boiler, and it is pitched properly, next disconnect the steam main at the boiler and run the hose into it.

Let us know how you make out.

lincolntaggart

Here now. Disconnected wet return. Water runs rapidly out. I snaked it now too. I'm flushing out.

I have fall main entire length with 4 ft level

BobC

Have you washed out the boiler and skimmed it to stop the surging?

Bob

lincolntaggart

1 1/2 hour into skim now

BobC

I hope all your work puts this bogey to bed for you.

Bob

JUGHNE

Did you add a reducing coupling for the skimming or do you not have reduced push nipples across the sections?

lincolntaggart

So happy

lincolntaggart

Added reducing coupling on skimming port. Much more oils came out. Increase water volume too per manual. 1 gallon/ minute.

Blew down 2x.

Surging stopped. Ran for 20mins.

Reinstalled 4 hoffman on long run. Installed 2 hoffman on short run pursuant to my original arithmetic.

Short gets steam in 1:48 min. Long gets steam in 2:08.

Ecstatic. Thanks all.

Ordered associated gorton rad vents. Almost complete. Talk to you next time I'm in trouble

BobC

Glad to hear it's working the way it should.

Bob

Fred

That's Great! It may need another skim or two in a couple weeks but it sounds like you're well on your way!

JUGHNE

Before you go, did you reduce the skim port by 2 1/2" to 1 1/4" or was it 2 1/2" X 1 1/2"?

To others reading this;
Is it only Dunkirk that has side ports?
And do they all have reduced push nipples across the top?

I wonder why the Dunkirk type boiler installation manual does not require that reducer?
I have a couple different I&O for these and they actually label the "skim port" on the tee of one of supply ports. And simply state to install a 2 1/2" plug in the tee.
It seems obvious the reducer is needed. And if down to 1 1/4" then ftgs & ball valve would be more economical on the install. The installer would then stand out as a pro and show most HO how to skim, saving both money. Everyone might then be happy.

lincolntaggart

2 1/2 x 1 1 /4

hboogz

Lincoln - Great post thanks for sharing. Quickly, the resolution was more skimming? It wasn't a blockage in the wet return?

Would love a pic of the reducing coupling used on the skim port setup, if available. Thanks,

Harry.