Copper pipes near boiler, how bad is it?

JASTG

So, There was a pinhole in one of the original pipes, so a guy replaced it with copper, really wish I had read the "we got steam" book before I paid that bill.... anyway, attached are two pictures of my setup, just wondering others opinions on how bad it is, should I call him back? or wait it out until the copper fails.

Thanks,
Jeff

KC_Jones

That is on the wet returns it's not a problem. What is a problem is its piped wrong. That connection at the equalizer is supposed to be a close nipple not that long run of pipe. And going "by the book" there are other piping issues. Do you get any water hammer at the boiler or in the system?

JASTG

from time to time yes, I am in the process of replacing both main valves at the end of each run and the valves at the radiators themselves to see if it fixes it, but it hasn't been cold enough yet for me to leave the system on.

KC_Jones

Changing air valves generally will have zero effect on water hammer. Hammer is generally either incorrect pitch or incorrect piping. I'm on my phone so can't see the pics the greatest, but I am 100% sure the Hartford loop is wrong AND the way it's piped can cause water hammer at the boiler.

Paul48

Get a steam pro in there. There are least 6 textbook no-no's in those photos alone.

Fred

Hartford loop is wrong, your also have two mains tied into the heaader with a bull headed Tee. That's not good. Each Main should drop down into the header individually. Is the hammer near the boiler? If so, it's probably at that Hartford loop. If it is coming from elsewhere on the Mains or radiator run outs, check them and make sure they are pitched correctly. If the hammer is at the radiator, make sure the radiator has some pitch back towards the pipe that feeds the steam to the radiator (I assume this is a one pipe system)

Danny Scully

Not sure what picture you are looking at Hatterasguy, but that is a clear bullheaded tee. There is actually another bullheaded tee off the right side main. From the pictures alone that boiler is worthy of a re-pipe. Where are you located?

Danny Scully

When I think of a bullheaded tee, I think of how it's defined on page 54 of The Lost Art Of Steam Heating, which states "Bullheading a tee means you bring steam into the side (bull) and expect it to go both ways. It's a bad habit to develop...The problem here is that the steam rushes up out of the header and bounces back off the tee...the problem won't go away until you get the piping straightened out." Again, this is a bullheaded tee and not only is it not preferable, it's incorrect (among other things). Where are you located JASTG?

Fred

In my opinion, anytime the steam slams into the back of the Tee, before taking one of two directions is also a Bull Headed Tee. In the case of a take off of a riser from the main, the back of the Tee is not a place where the steam hits it. I never thought of a Bull Headed Tee as requiring steam to come from two directions. That would be a case where steam is colliding.

Paul Pollets

Galvanized fittings shouldn't be used in steam piping. Black iron, or preferably cast steam fittings are preferred and recommended.

Paul48

It's not the end of the world. There is some piping issues with the boiler, and if you have noise problems, and or surging, you might want to have a pro check it out. The piping should have been addressed when that boiler was put in, but if it heats fine and you're not having problems. Let it go.

JASTG

Wow. Thanks for everyones input, of course its not what a homeowner likes to hear but I appreciate it nonetheless. I am located in the King of Prussia, PA area. If it helps I can post pictures of different angles.

My great grandfather built this house, and now that I own it I'm on a mission to get it back to its once great stature!

JASTG

More pictures

BobC

That header is not configured correctly, how well does it heat the building? Is the fuel usage high?

Bob

KC_Jones

IMHO the age of the boiler somewhat dictates your course of action. If it's fairly old (over 20-25 years) I would just let the steam piping go until you need a replacement and then correct it. If the boiler is fairly new it might be worth fixing now instead of living with poor performance for a long time. I would also say get the Hartford loop fixed no matter what. I'm assuming whoever you had work on it doesn't have a clue or they would have mentioned it. Just outside Philly, not sure if any of the steam experts work that area? NJ is the closest of the people that post here frequently.

JASTG

It gets very hot in the house in the winter, I know its horrible to say, but its natural gas and work had me in Colorado ALL last winter, and my financee likes 80 degree rooms so I'm not sure if the fuel usage is typical or not.

The unit was installed in 2010, so only 6 years old. Looks like my best bet is to get the pipes corrected!


Thanks again for the comments and the time spent writing them!

-Jeff

BobC

Getting that piping right is not going to be cheap so make sure you find someone who knows steam - and ask him what has to be done and what you can live with.

Bob

JASTG

What are your recommendations on doing it myself with much more research? or is it just worth it to have someone who knows it to do it

BobC

The boiler manual will show how it should be piped, if you don't have the manual you should be able to download one from the manufacturers website.

I would not try to repipe that myself in the middle of November, if you want to do it yourself wait till the spring. In the meantime catalog how well what you have now works. Go over all the piping with a level to make sure everything has pitch so water can drain back to the boiler. The banging could be caused by a pipe with bad pitch.

Bob

KC_Jones

It can be done, several of us have done it. My profile picture is mine that I piped last year. @ChrisJ did his a couple years ago. It all depends on what your abilities are. Not really steam boiler abilities, but basic mechanical and piping abilities. Only you can really answer that question, it will surely save you money if you complete the job without too many hiccups.

Fred

JASTG said:

What are your recommendations on doing it myself with much more research? or is it just worth it to have someone who knows it to do it

As BobC says, I'd wait till spring to tackle a repipe, but I have to say you have unions at just about every connection and that will make taking it apart and correcting it a lot easier for you. Do get a copy of the installation manual and do it per those instructions. Those are the minimum requirements. If you decide to go beyond minimum, you can do a drop header and get much dryer steam and more head room to tie your mains into the header. But take it one step at a time and come back to this site as you begin the work. There are a lot of people/resources on here to guide you through the repipe.

nicholas bonham-carter

Maybe the wisest course of action is to do the basics:
1. Keeping the pressure low-ounces, with a good low pressure gauge, and vaporstat.
2. Maximizing the main vents, so the temperature is even throughout all floors, and rooms.
3. Making sure your thermostat is configured for steam.
4. Tightening the envelope-fixing (not replacing) windows, and storms
5. No temperature setbacks.
6. In the spring you can start the repiping.--NBC

j a_2

By the standards of those that normally post here in the steam section,your boiler piping is a mess...Period...Does it work, proberley, steam is funny it's defies the general rules,on occasion...You will really never know if it is costing you more to operate than it should because you don't have anything to compare it to...You got a lot of good advise here...Of course you can pipe it yourself,if you go with peerless I have all the proper size nipples and fittings for most all residential boilers.....I do NOT condone the venting and fuel to be done by anyone but a certified installer or whatever the rules are in your area....Venting, fuel and makeup air done improperly can really cause you a very bad day..

Paul48

" Go over all the piping with a level to make sure everything has pitch so water can drain back to the boiler. The banging could be caused by a pipe with bad pitch"

BobC................Remember you're talking to a novice. I know what you mean, but will he?

j a_2

If he keeps reading he will,know

JASTG

agreed, I am certainly a novice, but the book did a good job explaining the importance of proper pipe pitch. I think my best bet is to ride out the winter and tackle the project, whether myself or not, in the spring.

Thanks again for everyones input and advice!

-Jeff

j a_2

Yup good idea...

JASTG

So now I'm confused... I was looking for the owners manual that came with the furnace, and I found it, check out the picture, it looks like it still has that "t" in it.

Also, near the end of the cycle, the auto fill turns on, and the presser rises to about 3.0-4.0 psi ( it runs the entire time without the needle moving other than this). So then I drain it so the sight gauge is about half way, until next time the heat turns on. Any suggestions for that? is it because the steam is too "wet" going upstairs or something.


Thanks,
Jeff

nicholas bonham-carter

It's the order of the pipe connections into and out of the header which is the problem.
The risers from the boiler should feed one end of a slightly larger header, then the connection to each of the mains, and finally the equalizer, dropping down to the Hartford loop. This keeps the steam moving in one direction. Tapping into header between the risers creates a steam collision situation which can blow a lot of water up into the mains, instead of just dry steam.
Each dry return should drop down to the floor before connecting with its neighbor. This keeps down the possibility of water hammer in the returns.
Luckily you have unions which will make the job easier in the spring.--NBC

SWEI

http://www.comfort-calc.net/Steam_Piping_Donts.cfm does a good job of explaining the basics.

vaporvac

As said above, you need a "T" somewhere; it's the placement that's important. Here's a great little video that show it well:
https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/near-boiler-piping-video/

JASTG

Thanks everyone!

any suggestions about the water auto filler kicking on at the end of each cycle? i don't think thats ever happened before, and the pressure jumps up a bit (which causes the boiler to shut off).

I'm thinking maybe I should try to flush the system, perhaps some dirt in there is making for poor circulation.

Thanks!
-Jeff

Fred

What does the pressure jump up to? How do you know the boiler is shutting down on pressure rather than low water? If the water feeder kicks in when it shuts down, it sounds like the Low water cut-off may be shutting the boiler down. Has this boiler ever been skimmed? How much bounce do you see in the water in the sight glass? More than 1/2" to 3/4" probably means it needs a skim (or another skim). When the boiler hasn't run for an hour or so, is it over filled with water? There really is no water circulation. The wtaer sits in the boiler and boils. The only thing that moves through the system is steam and of course condensate in the return pipes which I think you had replaced. Do you have a low pressure gauge on the boiler (0 - 3 PSI) ? If not, I'd put one on so you can see what is really happening. Those 0 30 PSI gauges aren't very accurate and it may not even be working properly.
Turn to water supply off to the water feeder and watch it for a cycle and see if the water returns to its normal level. With it adding water at the end of a heating cycle, it may be just that the condensate is a little slow returning to the boiler. Is it a Cycle-Gard or a Safegard water feeder? Cycle-gards are somewhat of a problem in the way they function.

JASTG

When I shut off the water feeder, after the system turns off for a bit it returns to normal water level, and I'm not sure the pressure, lower than 5psi, but i only have a 0-30 psi gauge. I'll look into getting a low pressure gauge.

Fred

Here is wht most of us use:
http://www.valworx.com/product/low-pressure-gauge-25-0-3-psi

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

You want a good one that measures ounces; they're expensive, but essential for making sure your equipment is running properly.

http://www.valworx.com/product/low-pressure-gauge-25-0-15-ozsq-in

Fred

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

You want a good one that measures ounces; they're expensive, but essential for making sure your equipment is running properly.

http://www.valworx.com/product/low-pressure-gauge-25-0-15-ozsq-in

0 - 15 ounces is probably a little too low when you have a pressuretrol with a Cut-out of 1.5 PSI (24 ounces). Once that gauge tops out, he still won't know what his pressure actually is. 0 -3 PSI is the best bet.

JASTG

guys/ and gals, here's the weird thing I'm struggling with. My great grandfather was a plumber, and he built this house. Unfortunately I never met him, but from stories he's on of those "dead men", and the system he built was near perfect. My goal, as said before, is to get it back to the system he built (with the modern boiler). The psi gauge, though i agree is a good idea, has never even moved (the 0-30 one) during operation until recently. Honestly, I'm thinking i need to stop wasting my time with this and get the pros in here (whom are actually pros at this) and get it done right, then I'm more than capable to deal with the year to year maintenance.

Apologies, I'm just getting frustrated.


Thanks all!

-Jeff

Fred

@JASTG , getting a Pro in there is always a great idea! Many (if not most) people come to this site because they have a problem that they either want to try to fix themselves or because their system has been botched up somewhere over the years and they do not understand how to fix it. Clearly having a set of professional eyes, on site makes diagnosis a lot easier. I'm not sure I understand your frustration. People here are trying to help resolve your issues but are depending on you to be their arms and legs, on site. No one on this site gets a penny for the advice/knowledge/time spent here. That would cost you untold dollars otherwise. The reason the low pressure gauge is being suggested is because a 0 - 30 PSI gauge (supplied with the boiler) won't move because these re low pressure systems and those gauges simply aren't sensitive enough to pick up 1, 2 or even 3 PSI pressure. They may pick up at around 5 PSI, if they are working. It is on the boiler simply because local codes require a pressure gauge that is rated at 2X the max pressure rating of the boiler. A low pressure gauge 0 - 3 PSI is not only a good way to determine if your boiler is running like it should (at a pressure at or below 1.5 PSI) it is a quick way to diagnose when a problem is caused by a faulty control device/plugged pigtail on the pressure side of the system. Your Great Grandfather may have been of of the "Dead Men" and I bet he was excellent at what he did but today's steam systems are not your Great Grandfather's systems! Back in the day, steam systems were mostly coal fired, ran all day and virtually perked water all the time. Once the air was out of the system, on initial start up, they ran all the time, through the winter months and there was no need to constantly evacuate air out of the mains/radiators like we have to do today virtually every hour because of the more effecient burner cycling that occurs usually once or twice an hour. The old systems often didn't even require main vents because of the way they operated.
Everyone here is willing to help but certainly you have the option and all of us would encourage you to get a Pro on-site. We may even be able to suggest a Pro that we know has the expertise. Sorry if we wasted your time.