What is it?

Quercus

I came across this on a dog walk last weekend. Has "PROTECTUS" cast into it. Looks recently removed from service. Couldn't find it at home depot.

Steve
<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/10/c4a26a5b98ca54dcec2891d86c08bb.jpg" />

Steamhead

Some sort of backflow preventer maybe?

Quercus

sewage or city water? I wasn't sure so I didn't go grabbing anything. There was a smaller pipe inside going along the length and a flap that wasn't big enough to block the pipe.

The size is 8".

ChrisJ

Maybe this is related some how?

https://www.neptunetg.com/Water-Meters/Fire-Service/High-Performance-PROTECTUS-III-S-Fire-Service-Meter/

Quercus

i just saw that. I think the flap inside is to measure flow. The new model is good for 4000 gpm continuous and 5000 gpm intermittent. It meters down to 2gpm.

I find a lot of odd things in the woods where I go in NH. There are old dams and pipelines in the woods (way more than 8 inch) that serviced a paper mill in town. There is some new construction in town so that may have been upgraded. The shutoff looked like a corrosion crack had formed down the side. Who knows?

Whoever dug it up doesn't seem like they are taking it anywhere.

Steamhead

If it's part of a fire sprinkler system, it may be a "dry-pipe valve".

In the dry-pipe system, the pipes are filled with air (or another type of gas) at a higher pressure than that found in the street main. This avoids the possibility of the sprinkler pipes freezing in an unheated building. The flap in the valve is held closed by the air pressure, so the air is trapped in the system, and the flap also keeps water from entering. You could do the same thing with an ordinary check valve.

If the building catches fire and one or more sprinkler heads are activated, the air pressure inside the pipes drops, allowing the valve to open and water to flow. Most dry-pipe valves will also trip an alarm if they open, to summon the fire department.

Another example of Dead Man genius.

Quercus

I would love to know how it got there. There is a little enclosure near where I found this that goes into the ground - looks like a shelter. This is behind a condo development and next to a river. I don't think there is anything with a large sprinkler system nearby.

I just sent a note to the property manager for that development to see what he knows.

So once the sprinkler system started the water flow, it blows out all the sprinkler heads? Would that device be in the building? I am visualizing a huge amount of compressed air bleeding before the water shows up. Sounds like some googlin is in order.

Steamhead

Quercus said:

So once the sprinkler system started the water flow, it blows out all the sprinkler heads? Would that device be in the building? I am visualizing a huge amount of compressed air bleeding before the water shows up. Sounds like some googlin is in order.

That's only in the movies. In reality, the heads open one by one when they get hot enough, and yes, the air has to vent out before water reaches the open heads. The dry-pipe valve is placed at or near the water service entrance where it enters the building.

ChrisJ

I've been told that so many times now it really amazes me that movies always show that.

First person to ever tell me that was a sprinkler guy on a commercial job when I was in the carpenters union. At that point I wasn't sure what to think but after hearing it over and over again from many people it's obvious the movies are B.S.

That and it seems pretty stupid to soak an entire building due to a fire in one small part of it.

JUGHNE

That stereotypical movie scene has not helped the introduction of fire sprinkler systems into structures. That scenario has helped to lobby against residential adoption of sprinklers. (good or bad legislation??? not taking sides on that).

1 or 2 heads open from high temp melting some form of link. (lead or glass bulb). Flow indicator valve electrically activates the fire alarm in building, calls 911 and in some cases brings on more water pumps. (in our case starts a city well pump).
You may notice Fire dept hose connections on the front of buildings. At least two 2 1/2" fire hose female connections are on a wye fitting. inside the building is a check valve held shut by the standpipe (minimum of 4" IPS) of pressure. If many heads are opened the fire truck pumper can raise the sprinkler piping pressure with that connection.

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

That stereotypical movie scene has not helped the introduction of fire sprinkler systems into structures. That scenario has helped to lobby against residential adoption of sprinklers. (good or bad legislation??? not taking sides on that).

1 or 2 heads open from high temp melting some form of link. (lead or glass bulb). Flow indicator valve electrically activates the fire alarm in building, calls 911 and in some cases brings on more water pumps. (in our case starts a city well pump).
You may notice Fire dept hose connections on the front of buildings. At least two 2 1/2" fire hose female connections are on a wye fitting. inside the building is a check valve held shut by the standpipe (minimum of 4" IPS) of pressure. If many heads are opened the fire truck pumper can raise the sprinkler piping pressure with that connection.

I had considered installing a sprinkler over my boiler and everyone thought I was nuts. I don't have enough flow for an entire system, but I thought one over the boiler could be a good idea.

That, and one over the christmas tree area.

JUGHNE

Chris, don't forget wax candles and the clothes dryer, also cook stove.

I believe the residential sprinkler systems (13R) can use your domestic supply piping provided there is attention to piping looping so as not to have dormant/stagnate/dead water in the piping on the DCW supply.

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

Chris, don't forget wax candles and the clothes dryer, also cook stove.

I believe the residential sprinkler systems (13R) can use your domestic supply piping provided there is attention to piping looping so as not to have dormant/stagnate/dead water in the piping on the DCW supply.

The thing that caused me to not do it (yet) is I don't know what the chances are of a sprinkler head failing are. It'd really, really, suck if that went off in my basement with the partial dirt floor. Or, anywhere in the house.

SWEI

ChrisJ said:

The thing that caused me to not do it (yet) is I don't know what the chances are of a sprinkler head failing are.

Extraordinarily low. I would worry much more about physical damage.

JUGHNE

That is another point raised by the lobby against resi sprinklers.
(Used mainly by home builders who have always protested anything that would raise the price of a house. This included GFCI's, interconnected smoke detectors, CO detectors and the latest being AFCI systems. Granted as all of this was new tech there were nuisance callbacks; I personally initially have cursed all of above mentioned over the last 40 years. Thankfully much of these were delayed being implemented by AHJ for about 1-3 years. Initial bugs were avoided for us.

But sprinkler head failure is just about always never. (can you use both those words in one sentence?
A nursing home I service has some of the original heads with lead links from 1971, they may be required to update, I don't know. I have very limited exposure to these systems but from talking to installers, fire marshals, etc they say just about never.
If you do one above a boiler it needs to be higher temp rated though.

ChrisJ

I just learned about how much power GFCI and especially AFCI breakers consume.

I'm quite annoyed, by the GFCI plug I installed on my 1933 refrigerator consuming 2 watts. That doesn't seem like much but when the entire machine only uses 1.14kWh per day a 2 watt addition on top of that isn't making me happy. At the same time, I don't want to ground the machine as the wire will be right in plain view so I'm taking the 0.05kWh addition. I hated having to have a 12W crankcase heater, now there's 2W more being sucked down for almost nothing.


Now picture having 5-10 of those in a house each consuming 1 to 2 watts 24/7. I've heard AFCI breakers are much higher too. I guess all of this makes up for any savings CFLs give.

JUGHNE

I suppose everything I mentioned above creates a phantom load on the electric system. Even smoke & CO detectors must consume some power to work as monitors. These loads will always be with us. But think back to instant-on tube TV's, they were warm all the time. Then there was an early no frost refrigerator of the 1960's. The T-stat was a SPDT switch, when the cooling was satisfied it would switch the compressor off and turn the defrost heaters on. The box would warm up and switch back to cooling. This went on forever. But no manual defrosting was needed, people were willing to pay money for this feature. As some 50 -75 years ago they were willing to pay money not to have to chop ice out of the kitchen wash basin, water pump or whatever. Our luxury and safety comes at a price.
We cannot argue the value of smoke detectors.
I will stand up firmly to endorse the protection provided by GFCI devices.
In my area, perhaps 20 years ago, a mother lost 2 of her 3 children when a hair dryer fell into their tub. Old house, not to current code, no GFCI protection. It probably would have saved their lives.
AFCI are still fairly new. The initial example given for the intent of these was to prevent arcing of the extension cords run under rugs etc. AFCI protection is required in new homes or major service change outs only. New homes should have enough outlets that extension cords are never needed. The old house that is grandfathered into the system is what really needs the protection. And will probably almost never get upgraded even with added outlets. Because now added outlets require AFCI protection which raises that cost and many will just buy more extensions and power strips......but we have to start somewhere, kicking and screaming all the way to get there.

So having been near death myself, drilling thru a hot wire with an ungrounded metal cased drill, wearing a metal band wrist watch that was against a water pipe, I would not mind spending 1 to 2 watts to provide that protection. (As you said almost nothing) ....What would the mother who lost 2 children be willing to spend, after the fact?

Your monitor tops require a CCH? was that in the original design?

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

I suppose everything I mentioned above creates a phantom load on the electric system. Even smoke & CO detectors must consume some power to work as monitors. These loads will always be with us. But think back to instant-on tube TV's, they were warm all the time. Then there was an early no frost refrigerator of the 1960's. The T-stat was a SPDT switch, when the cooling was satisfied it would switch the compressor off and turn the defrost heaters on. The box would warm up and switch back to cooling. This went on forever. But no manual defrosting was needed, people were willing to pay money for this feature. As some 50 -75 years ago they were willing to pay money not to have to chop ice out of the kitchen wash basin, water pump or whatever. Our luxury and safety comes at a price.
We cannot argue the value of smoke detectors.
I will stand up firmly to endorse the protection provided by GFCI devices.
In my area, perhaps 20 years ago, a mother lost 2 of her 3 children when a hair dryer fell into their tub. Old house, not to current code, no GFCI protection. It probably would have saved their lives.
AFCI are still fairly new. The initial example given for the intent of these was to prevent arcing of the extension cords run under rugs etc. AFCI protection is required in new homes or major service change outs only. New homes should have enough outlets that extension cords are never needed. The old house that is grandfathered into the system is what really needs the protection. And will probably almost never get upgraded even with added outlets. Because now added outlets require AFCI protection which raises that cost and many will just buy more extensions and power strips......but we have to start somewhere, kicking and screaming all the way to get there.

So having been near death myself, drilling thru a hot wire with an ungrounded metal cased drill, wearing a metal band wrist watch that was against a water pipe, I would not mind spending 1 to 2 watts to provide that protection. (As you said almost nothing) ....What would the mother who lost 2 children be willing to spend, after the fact?

Your monitor tops require a CCH? was that in the original design?

For 1927-1934 yes, crank case heater is required. 12W for smaller 1/8hp machines and I believe 15W or so for larger ones. The compressor dome is the highside and the refrigerant likes to condense in the oil if the oil isn't kept heated. It's a little 2.5" x 12mm ceramic cartridge heater that slides into a well under the compressor. 1935 they switched to a scotch-yoke design which uses the dome as a the lowside and the heater was no longer required.

I like GFCIs, I was just surprised at how much power some of them use and all aren't equal. 2W is on the highside apparently and I guess that's what I get for using a cheap male plug end which I think, belongs on a hair dryer. Problem was, I wanted a non-grounded GFCI plug, and I wanted a plug and not a receptacle because this way it's forced to stay with the machine. There aren't too many choices when it comes to GFCI male plugs.

AFCI So far, I don't agree with. I've seen way too many problems with them and many people having them removed after inspection. Apparently all you need is for a switch to arc and it'll trip. So, combine a normal wall switch with some CPF and what do you get?