Main vents

Abracadabra

vr608 said:

I think Bob nailed it, his explanation offers the most logical argument, ie the radiator and its attached runout is the total CFM that need to be vented at any given time.

Keep in mind, that in multi-story buildings a single riser may be connected to multiple radiators. So that single riser will be vented by all the radiator vents attached to it. I'd guess that in a single family your risers to the 2nd floor might be attached to only a single radiator.

KC_Jones

vr608 said:

I think Bob nailed it, his explanation offers the most logical argument, ie the radiator and its attached runout is the total CFM that need to be vented at any given time.

Have you bought the venting book from the store? A lot if not all of this is covered.

vinceM

Thank you for all the responses. I understand the numbers. As it appears it does involve both. Aside from the room with both the rad and thermostat in it, (which is treated as its own entity of sorts) regardless of the distance, once you get to the specific rad, the size(EDR) comes into play as well. Since all a rad is, is a reconfigured straight pipe adding more length to the overall run. I can see how the distance to the rad takes precedence.
Again, emphasizing all this secondary to a properly vented main.

vinceM

KC, what is the title of the book?

vr608

KC_Jones said:

vr608 said:

I think Bob nailed it, his explanation offers the most logical argument, ie the radiator and its attached runout is the total CFM that need to be vented at any given time.

Have you bought the venting book from the store? A lot if not all of this is covered.

I was going to mention in my earlier post that the Gill/Pajek book talks about this, but no, I haven't purchased it yet. The book can be found here:

http://store.heatinghelp.com/Balancing-Steam-Systems-p/300.htm

KC_Jones

I bought the book, great information, short read and the 10 bucks goes to charity. I have encouraged many to buy it. I reference it often when answering peoples questions on here, along with all of Dan's steam books as well.

GW

I'm afraid to admit i haven't been a good mechanic with finer points of venting, are the Ventrite 77's kinda useless compared to the Gorton 1 and 2 vents? I got the Gill chart today, gonna read up on this stuff. I always installed new vents, just not the right ones it seems.

Fred

GW said:

I'm afraid to admit i haven't been a good mechanic with finer points of venting, are the Ventrite 77's kinda useless compared to the Gorton 1 and 2 vents? I got the Gill chart today, gonna read up on this stuff. I always installed new vents, just not the right ones it seems.

It would take two Ventrite 77's to equal the venting capacity of a Gorton #1 and about 6 of them to equal the Gorton #2.

vinceM

Thanks KC. I will make those purchases.

Does anyone have a comment on the bathroom baseboard fin-tube I mentioned in an earlier post on Nov. 10th.
I'm very confused about this...

KC_Jones

vinceM said:

Thanks KC. I will make those purchases.



Does anyone have a comment on the bathroom baseboard fin-tube I mentioned in an earlier post on Nov. 10th.

I'm very confused about this...

Hard to say, are you 100% sure which system it's connected to? Steam or the hot water? I would guess the hot water, but you never know.

vinceM

All the other rads are the standard, free standing type. Clearly one pipe rads with an inlet valve off the riser on one end and an air vent on the other end.
The bathroom fin-tube has an incoming pipe, with no valve, on one end and another pipe going "somewhere"(up or down??) on the other end. No valve, no air vent. The pipes are not copper.
This bathroom is on the 2nd floor with all the bedrooms and there is another bathroom basically directly above this one on the 3rd floor, it has a recessed SunRad with and inlet valve and an air vent. Is it possible that the 2nd floor bathroom rad was piped in-between the third floor radiator and one of the 2nd floor bedrooms??
BTW, the 3rd floor radiator hisses and fights to heat up, but in the three years we've been in the house it has NEVER worked.

KC_Jones

A simple way to figure out which system. Turn the steam thermostat off, then crank the hot water thermostat. If the bathroom heats up it's on the hot water, if it doesn't it's on the steam. Another way would be by temperature. If you had some way to measure the temp of the bathroom fin tube you could determine which system. If on steam it should be north of 200° if on hot water I would guess 180° max or so. If someone did as you think they might have and put that fin tube in the supply to another radiator that would be problematic at best.

vinceM

Will do.
Thank you

vinceM

Thank you to all that commented on my topic. I was reviewing the thread on the subject and realized a particular point I made was lost. My issue was that two out of the three bedroom rads(all on the same floor) don't "work" properly but one, is, working properly. Given that the, vent the mains point has been made and understood why then the discrepancy with the one working and two non working rads??
Any thoughts?

KC_Jones

I believe I mentioned in one of my post, but perhaps it was lost. The most likely scenario is that one is robbing from the others. Even though it might work sometimes it could also depend on boiler run time as to how "bad" the stealing is. The thing is with all those huge vents running wide open I am not sure if any of us could really say for sure what's going on. Get the main vents right get much smaller rad vents then post back what you have going on.

BobC

Are the non working radiator takoffs at the end of your steam main?

If they are the steam might not have time to make it to the radiators. If they are not at the end of the main the horizontal pipes may be out of pitch, that could cause water to collect and collapse any steam trying to go up the pipe.

Bob

vinceM

Yes, I understand the Varivalves are an issue. I read somewhere, not on the WALL, that the Varivalve can be placed in the"closed" position but still vent the rad. Since I spent the $90 to fit those rads with them would the closed position be adequate?
Bob, interestingly the take offs for the non working rads are the 1st take off on one main and the 2nd take off on the other main. So they are at the beginning of the runs. A point to make here is that I noticed that the pitch on the left side main line is AWAY from the boiler. I think I recall reading a post that stated that it was ok for it to be that way if it is a Parallel Flow System. I don't recall what the definition was exactly.

vinceM

Here is a pic of the return side

KC_Jones

At the minimum setting it will vent between a Gorton 4&5 (closer to the 5) at 50% it's flowing the same as a Gorton D. I would get the mains right then turn them all down to the minimum and see what you get. Turning them up much more than that probably gets unpredictable. Parallel flow has the steam and condensate flowing in the same direction, towards the end of the main. Then there is return piping to bring the condensate back. So the highest pipe should be at the boiler and everything slopes away from the boiler to the end of the main then back towards the boiler on the return pipe.

vinceM

Wow, I didn't know that about the Varivalves. Shame on me.

Ok. I get the parallel flow.

vinceM

To Bob's point, what horizontal section should I be looking at relative to the boiler?

vinceM

I'm looking at purchasing the Gorton main vents. On Amazon, I'm seeing that the # 2 vents come in 1/2" connection and the #1 vents come in a 3/4" and 3/8" connection. Aside from the venting capacity and price, is there a preference?

ChrisJ

#2 is equal to something like three #1 vents.

#2 is always the preference assuming you have enough clearance above it. They're over 6" tall I think which is why I had to use five #1 vents.

Fred

Depending on how much venting you need and if you have the headroom. The #2 vent is about 7" tall so you need the headroom for that but it vents at a little over 3 times the capacity of the #1. The cost is about equal to get an equal amount of venting. If you don't have the headroom for the #2's, you will have to build an antler (an easy task with a few nipples and elbows/Tees). If you need more than one #2, you will still neen an antler albeit smaller.

Abracadabra

vinceM said:

I'm looking at purchasing the Gorton main vents. On Amazon, I'm seeing that the # 2 vents come in 1/2" connection and the #1 vents come in a 3/4" and 3/8" connection. Aside from the venting capacity and price, is there a preference?

A #1 has a 3/4" male and 1/2" female connection. It's threaded inside and outside. There's also a different sku that has the 3/8" connection.

ChrisJ

I'd love to know the reason the #1 is 3/4" male and 1/2" female but the #2 is 1/2" male.

There must be a reason.........

Abracadabra

ChrisJ said:

I'd love to know the reason the #1 is 3/4" male and 1/2" female but the #2 is 1/2" male.

There must be a reason.........

I'm guessing the #1 was an older design, then they came out with the #2 and decided adding a 3/4" connection was a waste of money.

vinceM

KC and all others. Follow up to a question I posted earlier. It seems that the 2nd floor bathroom fin tube baseboard is in line with the steam rads and not the water zone. It does give off heat. Is this setup proper since there is no inlet valve and no air vent. I recall someone on the thread saying at best it can pose a problem.

BobC

They can be a problem but if it looks to be working well just give thanks and move on.

Bob

vinceM

Sounds good.

KC_Jones

The only thing that raised a flag for me was that you mentioned the pipe seemed to continue on to somewhere else. Does it return to the mains in the basement or go to another radiator? If it goes to another radiator that was what I mentioned could be an issue, but not for the baseboard for the next radiator. It would cause difficulty in getting the next rad to heat. That would be my only concern, try and figure out where that pipe goes.

vinceM

Understood. There is a another radiator in the bathroom above this one. From how it looks it seems that the "outgoing" pipe from this rad goes up. Problem is that I would have to open the wall( breaking through tile) to confirm it. The upstairs bathroom has a SunRad that has never worked well. It does vent air but never heats up. Maybe that's why?

KC_Jones

That would be my guess. Some "smart plumber" did that many years ago. Basically that baseboard is condensing the steam and it never reaches the next one. The dilemma is short of a repipe there isn't a great way to fix it. You could try putting a large vent on the inlet of the sunrad to vent the baseboard in the first room. That might get more steam up there, but it could also overheat the room with the baseboard.

vinceM

Thank you for the insight.
BTW waiting for the #2 Gortons to be delivered. I should be replacing the old main vents this weekend. Hopefully it will finally get cold on Long Island and I can see how the "non working" rads fair with new main vents and # 5 rad vents.

vinceM

Hello all.
First I want to say that it was a GREAT educational experience to see Mr. Holohan live last week for his last "Deadmen" lecture on steam.
I purchased a few books and even got Dan's signature in one. I will refer to his writings many times in the future.
THANK YOU DAN!!
As a follow up to my last post on the new Gorton main vents I installed.
It seems that things have improved on the 2nd floor radiator that wasn't getting hot. However, it is still the last to get hot of the three on the 2nd floor, i.e., while the two other rads are already hot and the vents seam to be closed, this one is warm and still audibly venting air. It eventually gets hot, but it's a solid 10 minutes behind the other two. I believe the pitch is adequate. What I have noticed is that now is the the sound of water "churning" and "rushing" in the riser leading to the rad inlet. Second, there is a clear "clicking" sound in the belly of the inlet. Possibly, faulty valve/seat???
Any thoughts....

Thank you

vinceM

Also, I installed 2, #2 Gorton main vents. 1 on each of the 2 "main", mains. There is a third main I haven replaced yet. I'm not sure what this last main line feeds. Looking at the pipe layout I can't figure what this third line is for. There is one 12 section rad directly above this vent that might be what this main line is for. It just seems excessive to have a main that vents just one rad. BWDIK..

P.S. The tappings in the elbow where the new 1/2" #2 Gortons are installed are a little odd. The tapping is 1/2" connected to a 1/2" nipple connected to a 1/2"- 3/4" coupling. Since it is and looks VERY OLD, fragile and rusted I was concerned about breaking something by trying to remove the old parts. So I just left it in place and connected a new 3/4 nipple which connects to a 3/4" to 1/2" coupling.
I then connected the Gorton.
My question is, is this setup ok?

Fred

I have a 2" main that feeds only 1 radiator also. If you want that radiator to heat at about the same time as the others in the house, that main needs to be vented as well. The set up, you used for the vents sounds ok. You could have just used a 3/4 to 1/2 " bushing in that old coupling though.

vinceM

Thank you Fred.