Air vents leaking water and pipes banging

vaporvac

Do you know what your connected radiation (EDR) is compared to the rating of your boile

gennady

You need to find someone to clock the gas meter and adjust boiler gas valve for proper gas flow. Boiler is probably oversized as well. Also check if you have adequate venting (master vents installed) of the headers and risers. You probably have under vented system, and instead of full heating, steam also just compresses air, locked in the steam system.

ChrisJ

gennady said:

You need to find someone to clock the gas meter and adjust boiler gas valve for proper gas flow. Boiler is probably oversized as well. Also check if you have adequate venting (master vents installed) of the headers and risers. You probably have under vented system, and instead of full heating, steam also just compresses air, locked in the steam system.

I'm curious why you would recommend adjusting the burner based on clocking the gas meter? Wouldn't it be easier to do it by measuring manifold pressure? Or better yet, manifold pressure and have a combustion analysis done?

Perhaps I'm wrong but I found it impossible to adjust the manifold pressure based on clocking the gas meter.

The manufacturer specification on an EG-45 is 3.5" manifold pressure for natural gas. I can't remember for sure but I think it's 10" for LP.

gennady

Clocking meter gives you exact CFH, translated into btu input at rate roughly 1000 BTU per 1CFH. After comparing input to connected EDR you know what to do next.

ChrisJ

gennady said:

Clocking meter gives you exact CFH, translated into btu input at rate roughly 1000 BTU per 1CFH. After comparing input to connected EDR you know what to do next.

Ah,
So clocking the meter is only a starting point to see if you need to do anything to begin with.

gennady

Actually this boiler has 2 3" supply outlets, so there should be 2 3"pipes connected to these outlets, and when joined size of the header should be at least 4" in my opinion. Some might say it is overkill, but this how we install boilers. So header is not done properly. Elbow on the equalizer must be full size and dropping straight down. All piping must be insulated. Shut off valves must be installed on steam supply and condensate return. Also, the difference in EG40 and EG45 is only one burner.

ChrisJ

gennady said:

Actually this boiler has 2 3" supply outlets, so there should be 2 3"pipes connected to these outlets, and when joined size of the header should be at least 4" in my opinion. Some might say it is overkill, but this how we install boilers. So header is not done properly. Elbow on the equalizer must be full size and dropping straight down. All piping must be insulated. Shut off valves must be installed on steam supply and condensate return. Also, the difference in EG40 and EG45 is only one burner.

1 burner tube + jet , manifold, rear support and drafthood are all different.

Overall difference is 125,000 input vs 150,000 input.

I piped my EG-45 (now an EG-40) with two 2" risers into a 3" header and have a reducing elbow pointing straight down into a 2" equalizer. I run my gauge glass 75% full and run 0.25" - 0.50" WC steam pressure and my wet return's TDS is never over 2ppm so I'd say the piping is more than enough.


The drafthood is critical. From what we saw an EG-40 will run with too much excess air if you try to use an EG-45 hood with it.

gennady

Maybe manifold and hood. I checked and they have different part numbers. I never had a need to look into that. The manual shows 2x21/2" risers, but I always oversize little bit near boiler piping.

ChrisJ

gennady said:

Maybe manifold and hood. I checked and they have different part numbers. I never had a need to look into that. The manual shows 2x21/2" risers, but I always oversize little bit near boiler piping.

It's been a few years, but I recall the manual showing a single 2 1/2" riser for EG-45.

gennady

Yes, one riser, manuals just set minimum requirement. I always do 2 risers.

Steamhead

gennady said:

Clocking meter gives you exact CFH, translated into btu input at rate roughly 1000 BTU per 1CFH. After comparing input to connected EDR you know what to do next.

If you clock the meter, measure the manifold pressure and do a combustion test, each of the three items will cross-check the other two.

gennady

Steamhead said:

gennady said:

Clocking meter gives you exact CFH, translated into btu input at rate roughly 1000 BTU per 1CFH. After comparing input to connected EDR you know what to do next.

If you clock the meter, measure the manifold pressure and do a combustion test, each of the three items will cross-check the other two.

Manifold pressure and meter clocking do cross check each other. Combustion test sets gas to air ratio and influence combustion efficiency, but not input.

NYwoman

If someone can recommend an expert that visits this site and works in NYC I will appreciate it. I have tried yo talk to several boiler people and they do not want to listen to what all you are saying. Any help out there?

nicholas bonham-carter

What about Grennady above?

http://www.absolutemechanicalcoinc.com/

Or:

JohnNy

Gatewayplumbing.com

hboogz

NYWoman - have you worked on resolving the issues? It's been getting chilly here in queens!

KC_Jones

NYwoman said:

If someone can recommend an expert that visits this site and works in NYC I will appreciate it. I have tried yo talk to several boiler people and they do not want to listen to what all you are saying. Any help out there?

Does that mean they have solutions? And I don't mean "well we could try this or try that" I mean they definitively say this is your problem and we can fix it. Perhaps you could inform them that the owner of this site has literally written the books on steam heating. That is probably wasted breathe because the obviously haven't read them...can't stand people who choose to stay stupid. Is there any chance of getting the original installer back to at least pipe it to manufacturers spec? You paid for that and they didn't give it to you. What was in the contract with that installer? I personally wouldn't want them back, but since you paid. I don't want to speculate on your financial situation, but to get it fixed properly by someone who knows will cost you even more money. It's a tough spot for sure. Try calling the above contractors and see what they say.

hboogz

Abracadabra said:

Installer needs to come back to:

1 - install a skim port
2 - move makeup water feed to the return line and not feed directly into the boiler.

Abracadabra - could you tell which picture shows me your second point ? And why is that not recommended ?

Thanks,

Harry

vr608

hboogz said:

Abracadabra said:

Installer needs to come back to:

1 - install a skim port
2 - move makeup water feed to the return line and not feed directly into the boiler.

Abracadabra - could you tell which picture shows me your second point ? And why is that not recommended ?

Thanks,

Harry

I think the feed line needs to be piped that way to reduce thermal shock to the boiler if makeup water is added.

hboogz

Ok. Is this the picture and point where it's incorrect?

ChrisJ

Being @gennady has already reviewed this thread and does great work I'd recommend going with him.

http://www.absolutemechanicalcoinc.com/

KC_Jones

People have different opinions on this, but what is being said is the make up should not be connected to the boiler in that location. It should be connected into the condensate return piping so you don't dump ice cold water into a potentially hot boiler causing thermal shock. Connecting it to the return piping helps temper it with the warm return water so it's not so cold. Also in the Weil Mclain manual it clearly states that is the drain location, so the installer neglected to install that correctly among the other things. I'm guessing the manual that came with it is still sealed in the plastic.

Steamhead

gennady said:

Steamhead said:

gennady said:

Clocking meter gives you exact CFH, translated into btu input at rate roughly 1000 BTU per 1CFH. After comparing input to connected EDR you know what to do next.

If you clock the meter, measure the manifold pressure and do a combustion test, each of the three items will cross-check the other two.

Manifold pressure and meter clocking do cross check each other. Combustion test sets gas to air ratio and influence combustion efficiency, but not input.

But if you have high CO and the input is OK, then it's not a case of over-firing and you have to look elsewhere.

All three checks are essential.

hboogz

Great Thread. Thanks for the tip KC.

ChrisJ

Steamhead said:

gennady said:

Steamhead said:

gennady said:

Clocking meter gives you exact CFH, translated into btu input at rate roughly 1000 BTU per 1CFH. After comparing input to connected EDR you know what to do next.

If you clock the meter, measure the manifold pressure and do a combustion test, each of the three items will cross-check the other two.

Manifold pressure and meter clocking do cross check each other. Combustion test sets gas to air ratio and influence combustion efficiency, but not input.

But if you have high CO and the input is OK, then it's not a case of over-firing and you have to look elsewhere.

All three checks are essential.

Steamhead,
How accurately does a CGV regulate output vs input? It seems like the regulator on my gas meter is fairly crude at it as I see around a 1.5" drop from no load to near full load not far from the meter, I can only assume a lot of this if not most is from the regulator it self and not piping. A guy from the gas co told me the incoming pressure to the regulator at the meter is 50 PSI.

If that's true, I'm wondering how close a CGV can hold 3.5" over a wide range of input pressures, say, 5" to 10".

Steamhead

I don't know offhand what the tolerances are, but that's what the regulator is designed to do- make sure the output pressure stays the same even though the input pressure may change.

The pressure drop across a regulator depends on how they designed it- for example, the building regulator (the one at the meter) produces a drop from 50 PSI in your case to maybe 8-10 inches of water column. There is room for some fluctuation on this regulator because the design of the system assumes each appliance will have its own regulator to make the final drop to 3.5" WC or whatever is specified.

There is no room for fluctuation on a CGV or other appliance regulator, since the gas entering the burner must be held to an exact input rate. But the building regulator (or area regulator on a low-pressure distribution system) keeps the building pressure steady enough that the appliance regulator can handle the rest of the job. So it's basically a team effort.