Another SteamMaster Report

Dave in QCA

With the heating season just around the corner, I decided it was time to clean out the boiler and get it ready for fall. Yes, I am still in the school of fall cleaning, but will probably change next year and do a proper summertime layup.

So, I drained the boiler, a Weil-McLain 680. Draining off the two LWCO devices, there was just a little little sediment in the bottom of each, it had an appearance of chocolate milk. After draining the boiler and opening up the cleanout leg, I started washing out the boiler using my rinse wand. I was surprise that there was zero amount of black muck. At the worst, there was a little amount of chocolate milk, quickly followed by weak ice tea. I continued rinsing out each section until the water ran clear. It did not take too long. There just wasn't much to clean out.

I attribute the lack of corrosion to the use of Steam Master tablets. I dosed heavier than some of the folks on here, but at about half the rate recommended on the label. My rational is partly based on the fact that my boiler has a high water content, which is about 55 gallons.

I know that this report does not present anything new. But, I wanted to let folks know that there is another case study that is producing great results.

ChrisJ

There's a reason commercial boilers always use water treatment.

Dave in QCA

Yes, Commercial boilers use treatment largely because they have more loss of steam and more makeup water. TDS in the boiler water climbs and must be controlled, usually by a some time of continuous skimmer. Oxygen corrosion is reduced by the use of a Suflite/Sulfate Oxygen scavenger an probably a de-aerator. Lime is controlled by a Phosphate product. Condensate lines are protect by the use of a volatile amine, which carries over with the steam and raises he pH of the condensate.

But... all of that is a very involved process to manage. When not properly managed, a treatment program can cause as much damage as it is intended to prevent. That is why Weil-McLain does not recommend chemical treatment in residential cast iron boilers installed in situations with good supply water and in systems that are tight.

We have good water conditions in Davenport, and my system is quite tight. However, I do believe the Steam Master is a great product. It has little chance of causing damage through misuse. Increasing the life of the boiler is certainly something I'm interested in doing. But, I'd have to say, there aren't many other products that I would consider in my application.

MarkS

Misposted

PMJ

I agree with Dave that commercial boilers always have chemical treatment because they use water. The bigger the system the more makeup water required. I run a 200 hp boiler for process steam and a chemical is metered in whenever the condensate return pump runs.

My boiler at home doesn't use any water to speak of. I open the valve at startup and turn it back off when the auto fill valve is satisfied which takes a few seconds. I have never needed to add during the season. Since there is no new water being added I don't think there is any need for chemcials. I don't think they hurt anything except the pocketbook. I have never seen a need for it and I'm looking at a boiler that is somewhere around 60 years old with clear water in it and still going.

Dave in QCA

PJM, your plant sounds familiar. In a form life, I was responsible for a pair of 338HP Kewanee Scotch Marine boilers. We had a fair amount of makeup due to direct steam humidifiers on the HVAC system and steam sterilizers.

ChrisJ

PMJ said:

I agree with Dave that commercial boilers always have chemical treatment because they use water. The bigger the system the more makeup water required. I run a 200 hp boiler for process steam and a chemical is metered in whenever the condensate return pump runs.



My boiler at home doesn't use any water to speak of. I open the valve at startup and turn it back off when the auto fill valve is satisfied which takes a few seconds. I have never needed to add during the season. Since there is no new water being added I don't think there is any need for chemcials. I don't think they hurt anything except the pocketbook. I have never seen a need for it and I'm looking at a boiler that is somewhere around 60 years old with clear water in it and still going.

You've made a fatal error in your logic.
Your steam system, just like most are open to the atmosphere.

That means there's plenty of air in the system and makeup water is probably the smallest source of oxygen in the water. Return water from the system also has carbonic acid in it.

The water coming back to the boiler is corrosive, period.

Steam heat systems of all sizes need treatment, it doesn't matter how good your local water is.

Dave in QCA

Of course, local water conditions that are especially harmful and destroy cast iron boilers are those that have high levels of chloride and dissolved minerals, have a low pH, and perhaps even other issues as well. High chloride levels lead to graphitic corrosion on pinned cast iron sectional boilers, where the cast iron gets extremely hot right above the water line.

Limiting cast iron boiler corrosion is at best, a balancing act. To do it the best way possible requires daily tests and titration of the following. pH, TDS, Chlorides, Sulfite, Phosphate, and pH of the condensate. Corresponding to the test results, metered addition of at 3 products, typically. The cost in terms of product, reagents, and time, for a residential cast iron boiler is not reasonable.

One product boiler treatments historically have a very bad reputation because at best, they are a shotgun blast approach to an unidentified target. There have been lots of boilers destroyed by willy nilly use of boiler treatment by unqualified personnel, so much so that residential boiler industry recommends against their use, and I DO NOT believe their advice is devious.

Perhaps the best answer of all, for cast iron steam boilers that have long lives, lies in the design of the Burnham Megasteam, in which the hot flue gasses only come in contact with the wet portions of the cast iron, and nowhere above the water line. In another 10 years, we are going to see a LOT of that type of design I believe.

In the meantime, I believe that SteamMaster Tablets is a safe product that produces positive results, although it is not a cure-all by any means, and I'm sure we will see plenty of disappointed Steam Master users as the years go by.

ChrisJ

May I remind you that it also turns the water purple?

That's a deciding advantage in my book.

Dave in QCA

Well, OK. I guess you got a point there!

PMJ

ChrisJ said:

PMJ said:

I agree with Dave that commercial boilers always have chemical treatment because they use water. The bigger the system the more makeup water required. I run a 200 hp boiler for process steam and a chemical is metered in whenever the condensate return pump runs.



My boiler at home doesn't use any water to speak of. I open the valve at startup and turn it back off when the auto fill valve is satisfied which takes a few seconds. I have never needed to add during the season. Since there is no new water being added I don't think there is any need for chemcials. I don't think they hurt anything except the pocketbook. I have never seen a need for it and I'm looking at a boiler that is somewhere around 60 years old with clear water in it and still going.

You've made a fatal error in your logic.
Your steam system, just like most are open to the atmosphere.

That means there's plenty of air in the system and makeup water is probably the smallest source of oxygen in the water. Return water from the system also has carbonic acid in it.

The water coming back to the boiler is corrosive, period.

Steam heat systems of all sizes need treatment, it doesn't matter how good your local water is.

Chris,

I'm sure you've noticed that oxygen leaves water when it is heated. That is why everyone (including you) advise boiling right away after filling a boiler. Boiling water on a stove demonstrates this pretty well. If the air above the waterline just went right back in then boiling it once would be a waste of time. An operating system runs with hot water or steam everywhere with very little oxygen in it. When it stops operating and finally becomes cool enough to accept any oxygen it is very difficult to get that oxygen back in without agitating it. Think fish tanks and pond aerators. Cool water sitting still in a boiler has minimal surface area and zero agitation and it will be tough to get oxygen back in it. So no, I can't agree with you that being open to the atmosphere is the largest source of oxygen in boiler water. And by the way, my system is completely closed off at all times except when the burner is on AND there is no vacuum. So all summer long there is no air entering or leaving.

To your point about carbonic acid, if what you say is true then all untreated boiler water must be acidic. But mine isn't. I got about 8 last time I tested it. I'm quite sure if it were actually acidic I would see a lot of rust - I don't and I have never changed it.

Anyway, I think the 60 years untreated is enough evidence that treatment in residential systems is not a requirement.

ChrisJ

PMJ said:

ChrisJ said:

PMJ said:

I agree with Dave that commercial boilers always have chemical treatment because they use water. The bigger the system the more makeup water required. I run a 200 hp boiler for process steam and a chemical is metered in whenever the condensate return pump runs.



My boiler at home doesn't use any water to speak of. I open the valve at startup and turn it back off when the auto fill valve is satisfied which takes a few seconds. I have never needed to add during the season. Since there is no new water being added I don't think there is any need for chemcials. I don't think they hurt anything except the pocketbook. I have never seen a need for it and I'm looking at a boiler that is somewhere around 60 years old with clear water in it and still going.

You've made a fatal error in your logic.
Your steam system, just like most are open to the atmosphere.

That means there's plenty of air in the system and makeup water is probably the smallest source of oxygen in the water. Return water from the system also has carbonic acid in it.

The water coming back to the boiler is corrosive, period.

Steam heat systems of all sizes need treatment, it doesn't matter how good your local water is.

Chris,

I'm sure you've noticed that oxygen leaves water when it is heated. That is why everyone (including you) advise boiling right away after filling a boiler. Boiling water on a stove demonstrates this pretty well. If the air above the waterline just went right back in then boiling it once would be a waste of time. An operating system runs with hot water or steam everywhere with very little oxygen in it. When it stops operating and finally becomes cool enough to accept any oxygen it is very difficult to get that oxygen back in without agitating it. Think fish tanks and pond aerators. Cool water sitting still in a boiler has minimal surface area and zero agitation and it will be tough to get oxygen back in it. So no, I can't agree with you that being open to the atmosphere is the largest source of oxygen in boiler water. And by the way, my system is completely closed off at all times except when the burner is on AND there is no vacuum. So all summer long there is no air entering or leaving.

To your point about carbonic acid, if what you say is true then all untreated boiler water must be acidic. But mine isn't. I got about 8 last time I tested it. I'm quite sure if it were actually acidic I would see a lot of rust - I don't and I have never changed it.

Anyway, I think the 60 years untreated is enough evidence that treatment in residential systems is not a requirement.

Perhaps you're correct regarding O2.

However,
Have you checked your wet return water's PH?

vaporvac

I see this as yet another plug for vacuum systems!

PMJ

vaporvac said:

I see as yet another plug for vacuum systems!

Many advantages not immediately obvious.

PMJ

Dave in QCA said:

PJM, your plant sounds familiar. In a form life, I was responsible for a pair of 338HP Kewanee Scotch Marine boilers. We had a fair amount of makeup due to direct steam humidifiers on the HVAC system and steam sterilizers.

That would be lot of water to treat.

The original boiler house at our plant has 3 600HP Combustion Engineering coal fired boilers still in it. Mothballed in 1970's. Those are monsters almost 2 stories tall. I never saw them run but found a log book - looked like they kept a few people quite busy.

ChrisJ

PMJ said:

Dave in QCA said:

PJM, your plant sounds familiar. In a form life, I was responsible for a pair of 338HP Kewanee Scotch Marine boilers. We had a fair amount of makeup due to direct steam humidifiers on the HVAC system and steam sterilizers.

That would be lot of water to treat.

The original boiler house at our plant has 3 600HP Combustion Engineering coal fired boilers still in it. Mothballed in 1970's. Those are monsters almost 2 stories tall. I never saw them run but found a log book - looked like they kept a few people quite busy.

Wonder what kind of HP the typical fission plant products?

BobC

The Pilgrim Nuclear plant in Plymouth, MA produces 690 megawatts, that is about 925,300 HP. They use the water from Cape Cod bay (480 million gallons a day), they had to shut the plant down a few times this summer because the incoming sea water was to warm to properly cool the plant.

We should have abandoned the uranium plants decades ago, they just don't produce electricity economically despite the initial claim that energy would be to cheap to meter.

Bob

PMJ

ChrisJ said:

PMJ said:

ChrisJ said:

PMJ said:

I agree with Dave that commercial boilers always have chemical treatment because they use water. The bigger the system the more makeup water required. I run a 200 hp boiler for process steam and a chemical is metered in whenever the condensate return pump runs.



My boiler at home doesn't use any water to speak of. I open the valve at startup and turn it back off when the auto fill valve is satisfied which takes a few seconds. I have never needed to add during the season. Since there is no new water being added I don't think there is any need for chemcials. I don't think they hurt anything except the pocketbook. I have never seen a need for it and I'm looking at a boiler that is somewhere around 60 years old with clear water in it and still going.

You've made a fatal error in your logic.
Your steam system, just like most are open to the atmosphere.

That means there's plenty of air in the system and makeup water is probably the smallest source of oxygen in the water. Return water from the system also has carbonic acid in it.

The water coming back to the boiler is corrosive, period.

Steam heat systems of all sizes need treatment, it doesn't matter how good your local water is.

Chris,

I'm sure you've noticed that oxygen leaves water when it is heated. That is why everyone (including you) advise boiling right away after filling a boiler. Boiling water on a stove demonstrates this pretty well. If the air above the waterline just went right back in then boiling it once would be a waste of time. An operating system runs with hot water or steam everywhere with very little oxygen in it. When it stops operating and finally becomes cool enough to accept any oxygen it is very difficult to get that oxygen back in without agitating it. Think fish tanks and pond aerators. Cool water sitting still in a boiler has minimal surface area and zero agitation and it will be tough to get oxygen back in it. So no, I can't agree with you that being open to the atmosphere is the largest source of oxygen in boiler water. And by the way, my system is completely closed off at all times except when the burner is on AND there is no vacuum. So all summer long there is no air entering or leaving.

To your point about carbonic acid, if what you say is true then all untreated boiler water must be acidic. But mine isn't. I got about 8 last time I tested it. I'm quite sure if it were actually acidic I would see a lot of rust - I don't and I have never changed it.

Anyway, I think the 60 years untreated is enough evidence that treatment in residential systems is not a requirement.

Perhaps you're correct regarding O2.

However,
Have you checked your wet return water's PH?

Chris,

I finally got to check the PH properly. Brought the meter home from the plant and made sure it was calibrated first. After several tests I find it is anywhere 9.35 - 9.55. Remember, this is a system that hasn't had more than a gallon or at most 2 added a season for at least 25 years.

I really don't think that there is anything in these systems that causes them to naturally become more and more acidic or they wouldn't have a chance. My experience is that a very tight system where very little new water is added and just left alone the PH just creeps higher. It has been a few years but last time I remember it being in the high 8's. Crystal clear sight glass water and high PH. I quit worrying about it.

I really think runaway the biggest threat to our systems from a chemical standpoint is new water.

Mark N

What is the PH of your water supply? How does the PH go up if it is lower?

PMJ

Mark N said:

What is the PH of your water supply? How does the PH go up if it is lower?

Tested that too at the same time. 7.15. Cleveland city water. I'm not a chemist but I know when things are dissolved in water the PH changes. Some things make it go up and some down. As I said before, it is just common sense that if the dissolved components or process of a steam system dropped the PH of the water into the acid range boilers and piping would be destroyed without treatment. I've seen boiler manuals state that no treatment is needed except in extreme circumstances of condition or amount of feed water. I believe the natural state of affairs in steam systems sends the PH up not down absent outside factors.

ChrisJ

What are you using to test pH? Can you check your TDS? Mine is usually close to 0 in the wet return maybe 2 ppm at the highest. IMO this indicates very dry steam

PMJ

ChrisJ said:

What are you using to test pH? Can you check your TDS? Mine is usually close to 0 in the wet return maybe 2 ppm at the highest. IMO this indicates very dry steam

Using a Milwaukee MW102 temperature compensated meter. Only really need ballpark here anyway. No, I can't test TDS. I'm sure it is not as low as yours. I agree that the best steam would logically come from absolutely pure water. Chemically treated isn't pure water either. Presumably the more you emptied and washed out the system the lower the TDS. But that introduces lots of new water on a regular basis. If I had dumped her out every season I'd have run this entire time at a PH closer to 7 than 8 or 9. So is cleaner and new minerals every year and running at 7 better than a little dirtier and running at 8 or 9? I really don't know. My water looks pretty darn clear so I'm not too worried.

Honestly, I really don't know what is best. I'm really just reporting the facts about what is a pretty extended experience here for anyone to do with what they wish. I'm not trying to push anything here. If my boiler failed today no one would be surprised including me. 60+ years is enough that there really is no basis for complaint.

PMJ

Ok. One more thing then. I just took out the original Bryant boiler service manual and took another look.

There is a section in care and maintenance called DRAINING BOILERS.

It says: "Boilers SHOULD NOT be drained between heating seasons. Only when the water in the system becomes dirty should the boiler be drained, flushed or boiled out, and refilled. Steam and water boilers may be entirely filled with water during the summer months to exclude air. However, the boiler should be operated for approximately 15 minutes to remove free oxygen from the water. Also, under some circumstances it has been found valuable to keep the pilots lighted during the summer months to reduce surface corrosion". For what it is worth this is the plan I have been following. It obviously isn't too bad of a plan.

There is also a section on how to blow down at elevated pressure (at least 5psi)but there is no recommended frequency. I have not done that. I'm not sure at this point I want to introduce that much pressure in this old boiler for the first time in who knows when. The way I run it there is barely a measurable amount of pressure.

Dave in QCA

Pure Water is Corrosive. When one considers the problems created by bad water, which is usually defined as water with high contents of lime, chlorides, other dissolved solids, and low pH. One could jump to a conclusion that absolutely pure water would be the best thing possible. However, that would not be true. This is because pure water is somewhat more aggressive than water with a low put present mineral content. That is to say, water's ability to act as a solvent and dissolve things, such as a cast iron boiler block or the iron piping connected to it is increased when the water has zero TDS. After all, what piping on a steam system is the first to fail? Usually the wet returns.

PMJ

Dave in QCA said:

Pure Water is Corrosive. When one considers the problems created by bad water, which is usually defined as water with high contents of lime, chlorides, other dissolved solids, and low pH. One could jump to a conclusion that absolutely pure water would be the best thing possible. However, that would not be true. This is because pure water is somewhat more aggressive than water with a low put present mineral content. That is to say, water's ability to act as a solvent and dissolve things, such as a cast iron boiler block or the iron piping connected to it is increased when the water has zero TDS. After all, what piping on a steam system is the first to fail? Usually the wet returns.

I agree with you Dave. My comment about pure water was in reference to just the steam making part Chris brought up. I'm guessing in theory the driest fastest moving etc. steam does come from pure water maybe. Just guessing. But I sure don't think it is best for the system as a whole which the evidence of how I care for my system shows. It looks like Bryant sure didn't either - or at least not back in the 1950's when they were making boilers that really lasted. Clearly they were expecting a significant TDS level to be always present.

ChrisJ

Steam should condense into 100% pure distilled water unless you're carrying stuff out of the boiler with it. My boiler water has a TDS of around 500 usually including the Steamaster tablets.

Distilled water is corrosive, this is another reason I like having a copper wet return. However, I do feel bad for my radiators but they have tolerated it for 80+ years without complaining.

Mark N

Chris, what is the PH of your supply water? Are you on city water or well water? The original boiler is my house lasted 70 plus years with no water treatment. It was only replaced in 2008 because of the high price of heating oil. My neighbor had a boiler that was replaced in 2010 that was installed in the mid 70's. It had a float LWCO that was blown down weekly. This boiler did rot out after 30 plus years. No water treatment was used. With a tight system and a probe LWCO and good water a boiler will last quite a long time. I myself don't use any water treatment at this time but have been contemplating it. My city water tests with a PH a little above 7. If I was on well water I would more likely use water treatment.