Beckett / Honeywell R 7184 A 1000 Problem ?

Bob100

Used on a Beckett AFG Burner. Burner will not start when T Stat calls for heat. Instead I hear what sounds like
a relay click in the control unit ( R 7184 A 1000 ). Sounds like the relay pulls in and immediately drops out. Tried jumpering out the T Stat connection on the control unit, same thing. Sometimes the burner motor will start and cut out less than 1 second later. Give it enough tries ( without having to press reset button ) and the burner finally starts and runs normally.

In spending several hours web searching this item I am getting the impression that it is now obsolete and not easy
to get an exact replacement.

Do these symptoms sound familiar to anyone ? I tried a spare cad cell, no help. Wiring looks OK, no loose connections etc.

Has this item been replaced with a newer model ? Is there an " Exact Replacement " ( wire for wire replacement )
for this control unit ?

A couple of weeks ago I replaced the oil filter and nozzle ( exact replacement ) and the burner ran find for a few days. I don't think this has anything to do with the present problem.

The Beckett AFG is installed on a Hallmark Model CF 85 counterflow furnace.

Any help would be appreciated. I am new to this website. Found it while researching availability of a replacement control.

Bob Bona_4

That primary has a few quirks. Not sure if you have the oil delay circuit on your furnace but you're covered with the 7284b replacement.

Bob100

I do not have oil delay ( no solenoid on the fuel pump ) .

Any changes that might have to be done to instsal the 7284B ? On the unit I have now, there are only I think 4 wires on the underside terminals, plus 2 for the cad cell and the 2 external T Stat connections.

It is Sunday now, tomorrow I will try the local plumbing and heating supply house for an exact replacement. If not I will check out your suggestion. many thanks for a prompt response.

I have had this furnace for about 15 years with all the original burner components on it, except for annual change of the nozzle, oil filter and 2 changes of the screen in the pump.

Steamhead

Beckett's current replacement primary control for the 7184A is the 7505A. This one does not need the solenoid valve to work.

However, the solenoid valve with a slight delay built in, does make the starts and stops of the burner much cleaner. When they first came back into use I tried one on my boiler and noticed the difference.

Beckett does offer an add-on solenoid delay valve kit that will work with pretty much any primary control, the 2182602U. It adds a 4-5 second delay to the oil being delivered to the nozzle. We stock these and I use them on any burner they'll fit, including some older Waynes. The right controls will bring these burners into the 21st Century, as long as they will run with zero smoke.

But I have to ask- are you doing all your own maintenance on this burner? When was the last time it was tuned with a digital combustion analyzer?

Bob100

Many thanks for your informative reply Steamhead. I will see what I can find on the internet about the R 7505A.

The only time this furnace was " tuned " was when it was installed around 2001. I never changed any of the adjustments and yes, I do my own maintenance on it concerning annual cleaning of the heat exchanger, nozzle replacement ( exact replacement of mfgr spec. 0.65 80 Deg Hollow ) , oil filer cartridge changes ( type AO 25 / 264-48M Mitco 264M ) . Also replacement of the air handler filters ( two, 14 x 20 x 1 ).

I had to replace the burner motor start capacitor a couple of years ago due to at first a slight delay in the motor starting and then sometimes not starting at all. Replacement of the 15uf start capacitor resolved that problem.

My Hallmark CF85 counterflow furnace is used to heat my rather small house consisting of 865 sq ft of floor space single story.

Steamhead

15 years is a long time. You should have it checked with an analyzer. Where are you located? We may know someone in your area...............

Bob100

I do have a full service oil dealer that I buy my oil from that does have a service department if I should need them but for the most part the routine stuff I have been able to take care of myself. I have often thought about researching what test equipment would be required to do these tests myself and if necessary make the appropriate adjustments. I do not see any smoke coming out of the top of the chimney when the furnace is in operation so i take that as a good sign. The burner is in a well vented area to get plenty of air, a utility closet with the door removed.

On the original furnace that came with the house when I bought it many years ago, I used to have a service contract but in those days the cost was only ( XX ) per year. I had no specs on the old furnace and there was no internet to look this stuff up on. When it came time to replace with a new furnace I insisted on full documentation which I got.

Now it is not that I am attempting to learn the oil burner repair business or go into competiton with anyone in the commercial trade, I primarily just want to be able to resolve problems should they occour in the middle of the night, when it is snowing outside and the roads are bad to have to drag a service person out here. I used to work for a 24 / 7 service company in an unrelated business years ago so I know what a pain night calls can be.

Annual service contracts are a lot more than they used to be and with no offense to anyone, I never felt the proper amount of time was spent in cleaning of the heat exchanger or other parts of the system was done with contract service. I have worked in the electrical, electronic and mechanic fields for over 5 decades so some of that experience is applicable to routine service and repair of my furnace, although I am not attempting to be an expert on home heating systems LOL .

Bob100

Picked up a Honeywell R7284U from the local heating and plumbing supply. There is a huge cross reference list on the box of the controls this replaces and R 7184A 1000 is on top of the list. I'll install it later or tomorrow and hope it works. If it does I'll order one from an online source to have as a spare. Things like this for me, usually seem to go during the night or on the weekends. LOL

I hope this replacement does not require a solenoid hook-up cause I dont have that on my burner.

Bob Bona_4

No problem, cap off the solenoid wire. It's an option.

Bob100

Looks like a No Go with the R7284. burner does not start and the display says " open limit ". On the original R7184 there was no limit connection, even the terminal for it is just a blank space.

The limit switch in this furnace is in the air handler, a bi metalic sensor screwed to the housing and a manual reset switch next to it.

There is no wire going from this to the R7184 A box, so I have nothing to connect to the limit terminal on the new replacement R7284. Maybe a jumper has to be added but I can not find anything in the hook up drawings that came with the R7284.

I saw one place online that said they still have R7184 A 1000 still available, maybe I should try to order it and put the original one back in the burner for now. The original one will get the burner going after a few tries so it's better than nothing for now.

Bob100

Link to photos of the R 7184 A 1000 you will notice there are no terminals for the valve or the limit. I have no wire to connect to the limit terminal of the replacement R 7284U and I think it is looking for something to be connected there. I am beginning to wonder if I have to run a jumper from L1 to the Limit terminal on the replacement unit but I am reluctant to do this unless I can find out for sure.

http://www.chicagopartsnetwork.com/By-Location-/Addison-/Motor-Drives-/New-honeywell-R7184A-1000-ignition-primary-control.ASPX

Marz

Bob, the 7284U wants to be powered all the time on the L1 terminal. Most guys run a seperate wire from the svc switch to L1. But yes you can jump L1 and Limit.

Bob100

Thanks very much Marz, that is the answer I think I am looking for. Yes, power is always on to the L1 connection via the service switch on the wall In looking at some pictures here on the internet it appears the limit switch is in series with an L1 and the Limit terminal. This indicates a closed limit switch condition under normal operation and therefore L1 voltage would be applied to the Limit Connection. The 2 limit switches on this furnace are one on the fan / limit unit and the other is in the air handler. They were never wired into the original R 7184 A .

I just put the original unit back on the burner so I can use it if need be for now. I will try again tomorrow and put a jumper on the new unit from L1 to the Limit Terminal.

It's a warm and muggy afternoon here in New York but I wanted to have the burner in working condition. Got the Air Con on now but may need the furnace tonight. LOL.

Many thanks again for your quick response. I'll let you guys know what happens when I go back at it tomorrow.

I did take a look at the Hallmark Furnace ( Boyertown Furnace ) website and my CF85 furnace is now listed under Obsolete Equipment. I don't know how many years these furnaces last, I wonder whats going to be available if this one has to be replaced in the future. This was installed new in 2001. My how the years seem to fly by.

Bob Bona_4

Glad to hear you got it sorted. Hallmark was my "budget concious" offering. 20 year estimated life expectancy. The best IMO is Thermopride.

Bob100

Sorted, I hope so, LOL. Will try again tomorrow with the new control unit and connect the limit terminal up with Line 1 and hope that solves it. WoW, only a 20 year life expectancy ? I bought this furnace and had it installed by the oil dealer I used to have and they sold out their business a couple of years after that. I remember one of the installers said something about they don't make em like they used to and I guess that applies to a lot of other things as well. I didn't buy it cause of the cost, that is what the dealer sold me. Thermopride ? I will take a look at them for a possible future replacement. Only thing I don't care about on the Hallmark CF85 that I have now is there is always a lot of vibration from the air handler blower. Thanks very much for your comment Bob Bona. Tune in again tomorrow !

Bob Bona_4

Yw. When you check out TPride, you will see the difference in construction big time. Less complex and much heavier steel.

Bob100

Took a look at their website. Looks impressive although they describe their counterflow models as horizontal. Mine is vertical and installed in a purpose built closet type arrangement. If Thermopride is best, that is what I will request for next time. Maintenance I can do but for an install would rather have a licensed pro do it.

Bob Bona_4

Bob, your Hallmark is a down flow (return is on top) ?

Bob100

Yes, return and air filters and the air handler are on the top, hot air blows out the bottom. Ductwork is in the enclosed crawl space under the house.

My furnace is a Hallmark Model CF85

in this picture (link) it is the one in the middle of the 3 vertical standing furnaces.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=x-raw-image:///0c3158bad42cf772804c15bec11b292fee02a38c06d3f93dc6f5f27d74e1b833&imgrefurl=http://www.boyertownfurnace.com/productdocuments/hallmarkonlymanual042909.pdf&h=869&w=1867&tbnid=cvcs1LpYMQzUdM:&docid=M6KEGDe5lRAUEM&ei=oYUKVuKGDMbIeq7wh6gL&tbm=isch&ved=0CB0QMygBMAFqFQoTCKLbm-ygnMgCFUakHgodLvgBtQ

Bob100

Success ! I tied the Limit terminal on the new controller to the Hot AC L1 and the furnace came right on, so I hope this solves the problem. Seems it was just about a year ago I had to replace the motor capacitor on the burner motor.

The missing Limit connection at the controller ( there was no wire for it ) may also explain why my 7184B that I had as a spare did not work when I tried it as it also has a limit terminal on it.

A couple of years after I bought this furnace, I bought a spare Beckett AFG burner to use for reference and spare parts. It differed by having a different numbered controller, a solenoid on the pump, and different mounting for the motor capacitor but even with that I used the motor cap from it last year when mine went bad. Well, at least now I can feel confident that I can use my spare 7184B if I ever need it, at least now I have the limit connection ready for it. The new controller I bought yesterday came with appropriate color wire with the 90 Deg. quik disconnect on one end so I could apply the correct color for the Limit connection ( red).

The air handler motor / fan in this furnace has always caused a lot of vibration. I wonder if the squirel cage could be out of baalance or something ? I was always going to try to get a replacement complete fan and housing assy from Hallmark but never quite got around to that. Maybe I'll give them a call and see if it is still available. I read somewhere recently that if the motor capacitor is out of tolerance it could also cause excess vibration. This has been this way since new but I have ordered an exact value replacement and will try the cap first.

I would like to thank all of you who responded so quickly and accurately to my first post on this website. If I had not had this problem I would have never found this website. For me, it looks like there could be a lot of good future reading here.

Here are links to 3 pics I just took of my furnace. It is an overcast day here so the lighting was not as good as I hoped for. the furnace faces my back door and is in a closet. Not long after I bought this house I removed the door from the closet to give good air flow around the furnace and also allow the heat radiated from the stack to add more heat to the house instead of it being boxed up in a closed closet.

http://s466.photobucket.com/user/bobiniligan/media/MY FURNACE 2015 003_zpss6sr7c83.jpg.html

http://s466.photobucket.com/user/bobiniligan/media/MY FURNACE 2015 005_zpsiracoseh.jpg.html

http://s466.photobucket.com/user/bobiniligan/media/MY FURNACE 2015 004_zpsjjon8pgh.jpg.html

Thanks very much for your assistance guys !

Bob100

Tell you a good one soon after I had this furnace installed. The old furnace had the stack relay box on it. I really liked that arrangement better but those are for the most part long gone now. Obviously you needed a low resistance to pull in the relay to get the burner started. Never had any problem that way.

A while after I had the Hallmark CF85 installed with its latest and greatest solid state control on it, every once in a while the burner would seem to have a series of false starts. Run for a second or two and shut off but not trip out. I even disconnected the T Stat wires at the T Stat. it still did it. Disconnected the T Stat wires at the burner and it stopped. What could go wrong with the wire ? Maybe a rodent chewed thru it ? The wire runs under the house in the enclosed crawl space and was the original fabric insulated wire. It does get moisture down there in the summer. Replaced the wire with new T Stat wire and that solved the problem. I guess with the solid state controllers it does not require such a low resistance to start the burner.

Have never had the problem since and it has been at least 12 years.

Steamhead

Bob100 said:

The missing Limit connection at the controller ( there was no wire for it ) may also explain why my 7184B that I had as a spare did not work when I tried it as it also has a limit terminal on it.

(snip)

Well, at least now I can feel confident that I can use my spare 7184B if I ever need it, at least now I have the limit connection ready for it.

Actually, the 7184B won't work unless there is a solenoid valve installed and wired to the "valve" terminal.

The reason is, this control is designed to not open the valve for 15 seconds after the motor and ignition start. So if it detects a flame before that 15 seconds is up, it'll think something is wrong, and lock out.

Bob100

Thanks for the tip. When I tried the B , I removed the solenoid coil from the spare burner and hooked it up ( just the coil ) but I guess without the limit terminal connected it would still not work.

Steamhead

Bob100 said:

Thanks for the tip. When I tried the B , I removed the solenoid coil from the spare burner and hooked it up ( just the coil ) but I guess without the limit terminal connected it would still not work.

Unless the solenoid valve actually interrupts the oil flow, the control will lock out because it sees a flame before it's supposed to.

Bob100

I knew it would not be that simple LOL. Now that I think of it, when I tried the B controller, the burner did start for a few seconds and then stopped. If the 7284U seems to do the trick, I'll order a spare one online so I will have a new exact replacement for future use if needed as these kind of things always seem to happen nights and weekends in the winter. The way stuff like this goes obsolete and no longer available so fast, I'm glad I am not in the burner business.