Longer life reccomendations for single-pipe steam boilers

Fred

cubicacres said:

Thanks for all the great advice! (This post is also on my other post about Milwaukee area steam professionals.) So to sum it up, are these the things to keep in mind for a great, long-lasting boiler install for our 780 sq ft EDR 5-unit building?

1. Work with a knowledgeable single-pipe steam professional
2. Use a good quality boiler (any thoughts when selecting similar size header pipe diameter & heating capacity boilers across various manufacturers?, Just remember the header and riser specs in the Installation manual are the Mfg's MINIMUM requirement. If you can go at least one size larger on the header and risers, do so and use both riser tappings out of the boiler into the header. Push nipples in blocks are better than seals, etc.)
3. Maintain it regularly (annual tune-ups, and consider water treatment like steamaster tablets to reduce rust buildup in the system)
3. Size it correctly for EDR Sq Ft (pickup factors debateable on this site from 0-33%, it seems :-) regardless of what anybody tells you, you do not want 0% pickup factor. I believe the built in 33% is the safest way to go. In any case, I would not go with less than 20%
4. Install it with something to minimize adding fresh water over time (a generous reservior pipe, or something else along with a water meter to measure intake and fix leaks as detected?) No reservoir. If you install an auto water feeder, be sure to get one with a water meter or add a seperate water meter so you can monitor how much water is being added to the boiler. Unusually high amounts or regular usage is your indicator that something is leaking
5. Consider a dirt seperator (to minimize minerals coming in the in intake water)Not sure there is much value on an atmospheric boiler
6. Consider a Spirovent or something else? (to minimize oxygen in the intake water)again, minimizing fresh water usage is the key. Add ons like this probably have minimal value
7. Use 2 larger drop-headers of 4in or more to exceed the total diameter of the risers.One Header, preferably drop, 4" or 5" , Two Risers out of the boiler
8. Insulate well
9. Vent the mains well (faster), radiators slower
10. Consider vari-vents for tennant's individual comfort levels in warm 2nd floor rooms. Keep the thermostat in the cooler room on the 1st floor. Consider TRV's on the radiators, not vari-vents
11. Outside sensor & thermostat upgrade reccomended with the new system install? 1984 LCD thermostat & missing sensor dial currenly on the wall.
12. Low-water cut-off probe-type ok with less blow-down vs. float style LWC to keep water within the system? I suspect the probe installed in 2009 was still being blown-down each week as if it were still a float-ball type LWC with the previous owner, increasing our fresh-water intake & rusting the block faster.
13. Anything else I missed you'd reccomend we consider?

See my other comments in Italic, embedded in the above text. Also Install a Vaporstat, along with your Pressuretrol. The Vaporstat is much more accurate and will allow you to keep your steam pressures in the ounces, rather than pounds. The lower the steam pressure, the faster steam moves through the system. Keep the Pressuretrol also as a back-up safety device to the Vaporstat. Also, add a 0 to 3 PSI gauge to the boiler. With a Vaporstat, you will be able to see the pressure in Ounces on the gauge. You must keep the 0 - 30 PSI gauge on the boiler as well. That is code but they are virtually useless. Be sure to use pigtails (curled 1/4" pipe for your gauges, Vaporstat and Pressuretrol. Make sure the installer installs a skim port, per the Installation manual. Best of Luck!

ChrisJ

Regardless of what Fred tells you, Dave Brunnell sizes some boilers with less than a 0% pickup factor. Dave Brunnell is also known as The Steam Whisperer.

Both Fred and my self are homeowners, not professionals. Dave Brunnell is a professional.

http://www.thesteamwhisperer.net/about.shtml

That said, above all find a good steam guy. If he seems to know his stuff, go with his recommendations. If it was me, the first thing I'd do is tell him I want a new boiler and see what he does. If he first checks your radiation out and looks over everything that's a good sign. If he just looks at the current boiler tag and goes completely off of that I'd look for another guy.

See what piping and boiler he recommends. Honestly, in my opinion the name on the boiler is meaningless. The configuration of it is most important. Use whatever brand the installer is used to.

I like @Steamhead 's method and would probably go with a wet based boiler if I had it to do over again. Perhaps he can also give some tips on finding a good steam guy.

Fred

"Regardless of what Fred tells you, Dave Brunnell sizes some boilers with less than a 0% pickup factor. Dave Brunnell is also known as The Steam Whisperer."
If every HO were a Steam Whisperer or like you (having made a hobby of tweeking/tuning your system, I'd say try anything and then modify it if it doesn't perform like it should. I know, in your case, you started out with a boiler larger than you needed and you have down-sized it closer to your liking. BUT, and a big BUT, if it didn't work out, you have the old parts and the skill to put it back the way it was. That's not the average HO. In any case, I agree, if this HO can get a great Steam Pro who will warrant the system will satisfy the thermostat, in subzero weather (when we all need heat the most) or correct/replace it, I say go for it if that floats your boat. The HO owns the home and the boiler. Maybe .25 oz of pressure is the goal but I think we all know a few ounces of pressure is more than acceptable for a good running system.
I also like Steamheads solution, if the HO can swing it. With the wet base/power burner, the HO will get the benefit of tuning the output to a range that works or even use a lo-hi-lo gas valve. If this HO goes with the EG-75 he does have the option of a two stage gas valve (I think) and that may cover any concerns any of us have about the pick-up/piping factor.
EDIT: At the end of the day, options are a good thing. It should not always have to be an ALL or Nothing decision.

SWEI

Yet another example of why a factory option for a two stage gas valve should be available on all residential steam boilers.

Hap_Hazzard

Hatterasguy said:

I cannot stand the term "gross output". You have input and you have net output. "Gross output" is simply confusing to everyone, IMHO.

But if you call it "net" output, people will think you mean net output, and people who use these terms in the senses that most people use them won't understand you.

Besides, I've never known people to be confused about what gross output means before. It's the total thermal energy available to the system. What's confusing about that?

ChrisJ

Yeah... Until guys start taking about combustion efficiency and it doesn't agree with the rated gross output and your brain turns to mush and you go to bed with a headhunter

ChrisJ

Wow headhunter? Why is that even in the phone? Headache! Go to bed with a headache!

Hap_Hazzard

I once went to bed with a headhunter. She said she had a few positions I might be interested in.

KC_Jones

From Websters:
Gross overall total exclusive of deductions. So basically once you take anything away it can't be "gross" anymore. The gross output of a boiler would be the same as the input. Once you subtract the efficiency it can't be gross anymore it's now the net output. How the terms are used in the industry I can't speak to, but that is the definition.

Hap_Hazzard

KC_Jones said:

From Websters:

Gross overall total exclusive of deductions. So basically once you take anything away it can't be "gross" anymore.

But where you start is arbitrary, and output, by definition, starts at the outlet pipe(s). So there you are: nothing's been taken away yet. Sure, some of the energy in the fuel was wasted getting us here, but that doesn't count. It isn't output if it doesn't reach the outlet.

Think about your W2 (if you're an employee). Your gross salary is what your employer pays you before any taxes or employee contributions or other withholdings are taken out. But it doesn't represent your employer's total cost of employing you. Not by a long shot! They contribute to your health insurance, FICA and other benefits, give you sick days, vacation days and personal days, not to mention providing a place for you to work. So should we call your salary your net pay? It might make some employees a little more appreciative, but it would sure make doing your taxes a nightmare.

What value would the term "gross output" have if it were equal to gross input? Then we'd have two terms for the same thing (which wouldn't be confusing at all) and no term for gross output.

Steamhead

Nowadays on smaller boilers, gross output is called "DOE Heating Capacity".

ChrisJ

Steamhead said:

Nowadays on smaller boilers, gross output is called "DOE Heating Capacity".

Do you have any idea how the "DOE heating capacity" is calculated / measured? I tried to find info on it online a few weeks ago and found nothing.

PMJ

Generally in older homes installed EDR is way more than what is needed for many reasons. I have some large rads in my place that never need to fill all the way across to heat me on design day. So it seems to me that the only time you need to make steam any where near a rate to supply the full installed EDR of the system is on design day or in other words - never. So upwards of 90% of the time a much smaller boiler(one with no pickup factor) will easily do the job so long as there is enough water in it (like the old ones) to not trip on low water. And unless you can't wait an extra half hour or so on first start up from room temperature (which also almost never occurs during the periods we actually need heat) a smaller one is fine.

We have discussed many times how the old timers put big boilers in for open window syndrome and homes that had less insulation than they do today. And, remember they planned on the old coal burner controls modulating the fire down to nothing to match the demand. It was in fact the switch to full fire/no fire gas control that wrecked everything and actually gave us a less satisfactory end result. I agree with SWEI - 2 stage fire should be standard on all boilers.

Personally I would rather have extra firepower installed just in case of whatever - I don't see the downside except the small up front pocketbook hit. Power failures and such when you might find your house to close to the freezing point a bigger boiler sure would be comforting to be able to blast things to get back up there faster. Downfiring a gas burner some just with the regulator and the air controls on the cast burner isn't too tough if you really want to. When I clocked the gas usage on mine I found it was downfired and I didn't even know it. And using calculated/timed run pulses on a bigger boiler through available controls like Ecosteam or others to spread things out to prevent overshooting works just fine. And I don't think the bigger boiler used this way is less efficient enough to worry about. When the once in 100 year storm hits I don't want to be marginal. A little extra works for me just fine.

cubicacres

If larger boiler risers are better, can you use an adapter to make the 2 inch risers into 4 or 5 inch risers? If not, what are some of the larger riser boilers for a larger residential setting needing about 780 sq ft of radiation?

cubicacres

We have Gorton size #2 vents on our steam mains-would swapping them for size #1s increase the efficiency of our system and allow more steam to fill the mains faster? Any thoughts about un-balancing the system or other drawbacks to this idea?

ChrisJ

As was said, it doesn't help going larger than the tapping in the boiler and the EG series has 3" tappings.

It does however, often help to go higher with the risers. The higher, the better to an extent, before they dump down into the header. This helps keep water from jumping out of the boiler into the header. The minimum is 24" but 35-40" is likely beneficial.

Dave in QCA

BOILER RATING TERMS
Seem to be designed to created confusion!

I know that many years ago I theorized that steam heat was much less efficient than hot water because the vintage 1964 WM boiler in my basement had one "net" rating for Hot Water and a lower "net" rating for Steam. I did not understand the definition of the "net" ratings. When I later learned the definition of the terms, I realized the error of my "misunderstanding"

I might add, that after reading most of the posts on this thread, there seems to be a little bit an approach to boiler ratings as if it were a debate of philosophy. Or, in a sense, "What my boiler ratings mean to me." But of course, this is not a debate of meaning of life, but rather, the definition of boiler ratings. In that they are defined terms, the definition has already been made by the I=B=R, or Institute of Boiler and Radiator Manufacturers. To argue about what "Net Output Steam" means to me, is pointless, as it is already defined by the IBR, whether is makes sense or not.

It seems to me (not that my perception is correct or important), but it seems that there are two ratings that are the most important. [Firing Rate, or Input BTU] and [Gross Output BTU, or DOE Output BTU]. We know, more or less, what these terms mean.

When it comes to NET ratings, they are somewhat useful for the contractor that is not good with math, as they are a method designed to match the boiler to the connected radiation in a supposedly "typical system" without the need to do calculations. If you want to do your own calculations for the piping loss and pickup allowance, then DON'T USE the NET ratings.

vaporvac

I'm surprised noone has mentioned the Slantfin Intrepid as it was the most widely mentioned option for my install a couple of years ago. A SF TR50 would be just about perfect sizing for the edr in this case. I used the Riello G400 gas conversion burner which can be down-fired and may even come with lo-hi-lo firing at this point as they were testing that option. If not, I believe the Powerflame and Midco give that choice. Somewhere I have all my research.

Their tech dept was a dream to deal with and I couldn't be happier with how it runs. Of course, I have double the edr with twinned boilers, but the concept is the same.
http://www.slantfin.com/index.php/products/boilers-residential/intrepid-steam
http://www.slantfin.com/images/stories/Product-Literature/catalogsheet_intrepid_tr_10.pdf

I'm not sure you would need any condensate tank . I have 150' main and it a bit slow coming back even after a thorough clean/replace of the wet returns, but even when it goes off on low water it comes back on shortly. I figure it just gives it extra time to expel air. Do get your wet returns cleaned! It's amazing the sludge that accumulates.