Should We have known about leak earlier?

cubicacres

We're new to our 315,000 BTU WeilMcLain EGH-85 nat. gas boiler & single-pipe steam system, and learning as much as we can after reading Dan's "We got steam heat book" twice recently. Last week we paid $2,000 for our local HVAC crew of two guys to replace leaking near-boiler water supply pipes & simplify the copper piping to the water supply, add a Y-joint from 2 direct-to chimney pipes to the exhaust before reaching the chimney for our 40 & 50 Gal. water heaters in the boiler room, replace the gauge glass, and tune-up the boiler for the winter.

The tune-up was performed at the end of the day after everything else, and the burner tray was rusted apart along with much of the other areas of the block. It was a 1984 install, with a 1994 block replacement and now looks like we need a new boiler after 20 years of life. Our crew decided to come back the next day and fill the boiler with water to see if there might be any leaks before ordering the replacement burner tray. We found a small leak on the Right end of the block. We were told a new block or entire boiler replacement is reccomended due to the replacement of several rusted-out components.

Should we have expected our HVAC crew to check the boiler block for leaks before they did the other work? We were told by our home inspector we should have 3-5 years left in the boiler when we purchased the building a few months ago, but this came as a suprise to us. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

JStar

The first thing I do on a steam boiler maintenance is overfill the boiler to check for leaks. If I find a leak, I stop everything, and decline to waste my time on the rest of the maintenance. Everyone SHOULD do it that way. But "should" is a dirty word.

Bob Bona_4

What are you looking for here?

cubicacres

We were wondering whether 1), We simply got unlucky with the repair timing and learned an expensive lesson on our first steam repair, or 2) If we should ask our HVAC team to partially compensate us for the work on the old boiler that will be undone with a new boiler install. I now know the wisdom of testing the boiler for leaks before investing a lot of time & money into repairs, but this lesson was learned a few days too late for us this time. Our inspector told us we had 3-5 years left in the boiler, so we were assuming we'd run it for another few seasons and the repairs were worth doing on the old boiler. Any thoughts on whether this situation is common, or other ways we can hopefully avoid expensive lesson this in the future?

SWEI

I would be wary of asking them, at least before the new work is proposed/bid. There's also the question of steam competency to address.

JStar

It doesn't hurt to ask about compensation or a credit towards the new boiler. Whenever I make repairs on an older system, I like to know that the investment is worth it. If the water feed needs to be reconfigued during the replacement, then it seems fair that the new water feed would be omitted from the scope of work to replace the boiler.

On the other hand, you did agree to the work. So, the company is not exactly liable. The situaton could be interpreted in several ways. It's up to you to decide how much you enjoy/trust the work of the current company and how they would handle the situation.

JUGHNE

You just bought this a few months ago??

A home inspector who could tell you that the boiler had 3 to 5 years left in a 20 year old block must be pretty talented. But not talented enough to see a rusted out burner tray/compartment?

This is simply removing covers and doing a visual, no tech required. There will be a lot of fine print in the inspector's contract/report to CHA. Don't they usually just tell you to have a pro check that out?

However if you post pictures of the boiler with all piping showing, the recently newly installed should stand out. People here could tell you if your current HVAC people might be competent for steam working.

2 boilers in 30 years might be indicative of leaks elsewhere that cause fresh water to be added to boiler causing corrosion to cast iron sections.

BobC

It would have been nice if they found the leak before replacing parts on the boiler but it sounds like some of that work was outside the boiler itself and had to be done anyhow. Tell them you expect the cost of the work they did on the boiler to be taken into consideration after they quote the cost of a boiler replacement.

Excess water use is a sure fire way to kill a boiler, fresh water brings in oxygen and that corrodes the block. Does that boiler have a automatic fill valve? A boiler that is allowed to sit for years without frequent inspection is not going to last long.

The key here is to find out why those boilers failed, if there are leaks in the system they have to found and fixed so the new boiler has a nice long life. The new boiler has to be installed per the manufacturers piping diagram AT A MINIMUM - no shortcuts. Make sure the person you select for the job knows steam, ask to see pictures of some recent installs.

This is an example of how the boiler should be piped -


The pipe sizes are the minimum acceptable, they realy should used at least one size larger header than the boiler riser and if you use both risers make the header two siszes larger in diameter.

Bob

Steamhead

Post a pic of your boiler including the piping around it. Improper piping can shorten a boiler's life.

j a_2

Yup a pic would save you a lot of typing...
No offence to Mr. Home inspectors, but I have litttle or no confidence in them when it comes to plumbing and heating.I know u don't want to hear that and offers you no help..on your current situation...floding the boiler is great but one step.above that is a hydrostatic test, with the boiler jacket removed...Informing the tech with as much info as possible is important..

One could service s boiler today and it could fail tomorrow... Hopefully that does not happen but it could....


..

vaporvac

It's take a while for things to rust out, certainly more than 4 months. I'd check what your inspection covered exactly. There must be some sort of recourse for this situation, but probably not from the fellow who serviced it. Sometimes underwriting depends on a positive inspection, so you could look there as well.
Take up Steam Whisperer on his offer. He's one of the experts.

SWEI

Read the fine print in your home inspection report. I've yet to see one that acknowledges any kind of responsibility for much of anything.

j a_2

Question,should of any and all.known defects been disclosed by previous owner....I think they must tell.you... Or maybe there old service tech can tell you... Any service tags on boiler

Fred

Not much left to do but replace the boiler. It sounds like you hired a couple guys to do a laundry list of items. At the end of your list is "tune up the boiler" If they literally went down you list, replaced some leaky supply lines, simplify the supply lines, work on some chimney pipe to the two water heaters, and then moved on to replacing the gauge glass and clean/tune the boiler, you got what you asked for. It is just unfortunate cleaning/tuning the boiler wasn't the first item on that laundry list. It would have been nice if the service people had started with the boiler and worked backwards, but they didn't. Nailing the inspection will go no where, and proving the previous owner knew anything is next to impossible, unless there is aa service record that shows they were made aware. Here in Ohio, if a house passes a purchase inspection, many of the inspection companies will sell a Whole House Warranty, for the first year, renewable annually. Most of those policies won't always pay for a total replacement, usually repair, but they do provide a decent allowance when replacement is required. I have a few neighbors who have purchased the Whole House Warranties and they have been very happy with the hassle free performance they have gotten, thus far (and some of them are on their 10th annual renewal).
In most cases, you can buy that policy at any time during the first year, however, they won't repair failures prior to the date of the policy inception. Just for future reference. I know it doesn't help you, in this case.

cubicacres

Thanks-I've attatched some photos for your reference on the current boiler condition with the new steel piping they installed. I was happy with their work and enjoyed watching them all day to learn more abut our steam system. There was a lot of rust-the block/heat exchanger was replaced in 1994 after the original boiler install in 1984, we think. The automatic probe low water cutoff was stamped 2009, so some updates were made.

Fred

At the end of the day, that 20 year old block/boiler has to be replaced. Just make sure whoever does the job knows steam and does it, at a minimum, to the requirements defined in the installation manual and that the boiler is properly sized based on the total Radiation EDR. The amount of "lost Cost" on what they did to the boiler/piping before the leak was discovered is just not significant enough to make a huge issue of. Of course you can ask for some discount on the new install but we all know how that usually works in these cases. They simply add a few dollars to the total installation cost and give you a few dollars in discounts. Getting a quality install should be you focus at this point. Get the work done before the weather changes and then decide if it's worth the effort to go after the previous owner or the inspection company. At that point, you'll have proof positive that the defect had to be corrected and what it cost you.