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Snowmelt

Tom_133
Tom_133 Member Posts: 735
Hello All,

I just spec'd out a snowmelt job using pro press and after a bit of thought was curious what others are doing to prevent leaks after 5-10 years? The job is a 3" header and I could sweat the whole thing but was curious if pro press was good for glycol systems or if anyone had success with a different material.

Side note, this will be 4- WHN 399 and was curious if anyone knows how these units hold up to Glycol? I didn't spec the boiler the caretaker of the property did.

Thanks

Tom
Tom
Montpelier Vt

Comments

  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    We've been using pro press on systems with glycol on the commerical side for years now. I haven't seen too many leaks on the pro press side.
  • Snowmelt
    Snowmelt Member Posts: 1,276
    not only propress - veiga copper but I also have viega press
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 735
    Thanks guys, I really want this to be a pristine job. The customer is giving us a blank check, and wants a show piece. I am hoping to hear from all you who have done this if any have reservations on the boiler choice for this application, and to make sure Pro press is the right fit as well.
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • Snowmelt
    Snowmelt Member Posts: 1,276
    tom are you part of taco flow pro at all ?
  • Snowmelt
    Snowmelt Member Posts: 1,276
    here are two pictures ones the manifold outside house and the tankless that is used for it.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    A snow melt system would be awesome.
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 735
    No I am not part of Taco Flow Pro.

    Another question, sorry, I don't currently own any Propress. My thought was to go Milwaukee Force Logic and Viega fittings. I haven't used that combination before and just wanted to know if they play well together and is still warrantied? I read that some fittings lose warranty with certain tools.
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,785
    A lot of contractors are moving to Aquatherm for anything over 2", these days.

    Here is a GEO job in Big Sky that Energy 1 built. It seems every month the Caleffi Excellence program gets PP-r job pics.

    Glycol does have a tendency to wiggle through some crimp and threaded connection s after time.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    jonny88
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
    @hot rod is there a site where Caleffi provide hands on courses.I use their products extensively and just used my first Sep4.I would really like to get more familiar with what you guys carry.Thanks.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,785
    We offer all sorts of training. At Caleffi.com you can find archived Coffee with Caleffi.

    We have You Tube, 5-10 minute training modules. We also do a lot of onsite training. Our various reps also do Caleffi product trainings.

    We are adding QR codes to product that will take you directly to a short hand on install video.

    Jody and I are both full time trainers. Jody does mainly engineering training lunch and learns, and handles most of the east coast training at wholesalers and reps, he lives in RI.

    This Thursday we have a BIM/ Arcat webinar Coffee with Caleffi.

    I'll be on the road the next 8 weeks, Michigan, Chicago twice, Toronto Modern Hydronic Expo 9-10 & 9-11. Milwaukee, Missouri and Iowa, Colorado and Alaska.

    I usually do a NY and NJ trip every fall, typically Long Island and Henrys in NJ. I met Clammy there last trip.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Snowmelt
    Snowmelt Member Posts: 1,276
    hot rod I might have to try to meet you when your in NJ. Tom did you see thew two pictures I posted ?
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
    Snowmelt you posted something on the Navien thread,can you clear it up please.BTW you have enough spacing before and after your circs looks pretty close.I do like the Viega 90's though they have a nice sweep.
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 735
    @snowmelt: yes I saw them.

    @hotrod: Thanks, aquatherm was the name I was trying to remember for days! I would be willing to do the whole job in aquatherm if the price is right. I don't know what the price difference between copper and press vs aquatherm. I guess we will find out.
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Aquatherm SDR11 Bluepipe runs about 10-15% less than Type L copper here. The fittings are far less expensive (unless you are already using a TeeDrill.) We use it primarily from 40mm (1-1/4") up, which is the smallest size that takes fusion outlets.
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 735
    SWEI, thanks. I assume you don't have glycol weeps after 5-8 years with aquatherm?
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    In short, no. Thermally welded polypropylene is one of the most chemically inert materials available. Transition fittings, O-rings on unions, etc. are conventional. You can also weld to other systems that use DIN standard socket fusion (e.g. Asahi valves.)
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 735
    I never heard back from the aquatherm guys on tool rentals or pricing. I guess I go pro press and like it. Whats the standard glycol percentage most are using for snowmelt? I know the fittings are warrantied to 50% but for some reason I think the boilers are only good to 35%, I may be wrong better look again.
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,785
    For freeze protection % look at the label on the container, it does vary from brand to brand. Protect to the lowest temperature you can expect.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,837
    30% solution strength required for minimum corrosion inhibition. I typically run 30 to 40%. It provides decent freeze burst protection, corrosion inhibition and minimal thermal transfer degradation. With copper fin tube boilers, too high a concentration and you will get a sound that sounds like whales in heat. It's micro bubble steam flash occurring at the fluid to heat exchanger interface. It can be quieted down with the use of certain (surfactant) chemicals.
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,565
    You may want to look at Uponor HePex products .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 735
    I am not redoing the entire snowmelt system, sorry if that was unclear. I am taking a nightmare and making it into a functional, serviceable room and system. There has never been access to any of the pumps or to either side of the boiler (pattersen Kelly Mach 900) to clean them, the room is only 4' wide and 18' long. So we are installing 4 WHN399 wall hung boilers to gain floor room, and a 3" hydronic separator from Callefi. Sadly the original installers ran 1/2" hepex through the entire driveway cant change that now, but it does add to the head considerably which means big pumps. I have 5 zones and each zone has multiple manifolds on it. The system has always worked (not the most efficient) but it melts. They do choose to idle the slab quite a bit of the winter so that helps. I will try to remember to post finished product pics.
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Tom said:

    I never heard back from the aquatherm guys on tool rentals or pricing.

    Seems odd that the rep never followed up. The tooling comes from http://www.ritmoamerica.com/category_products.php?id=8 or http://www.mcelroy.com/ppr/


  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 735
    Wallies,

    One last question, I have put a picture of my design on here. What I wanted to do was delete the 5 zone pumps and use just one big variable delta T pump and 5 circuit setters. I need the space in the room, it would save a lot of money, and if everything will flow I would be quite happy
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    So the "zones" are not individually controlled in any way? Guess that might make them "loop pumps" instead of "zone pumps."

    Sounds like you are on the right track with circuit setters and one properly sized ECM pump.
  • NYplumber
    NYplumber Member Posts: 503
    Tom said:

    Wallies,

    One last question, I have put a picture of my design on here. What I wanted to do was delete the 5 zone pumps and use just one big variable delta T pump and 5 circuit setters. I need the space in the room, it would save a lot of money, and if everything will flow I would be quite happy

    Good evening Tom ,

    What software are you using for the drawings?
    :NYplumber:
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,785
    Are you considering fixed speed circs on the boilers and delta t on the distribution side?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 735
    Hot Rod,

    Yes that's what I wanted but haven't found a Delta T pump big enough, so I would have to install a variable speed control and it's probably not worth it unless tekmar makes a snowmelt and variable speed control all in one :wink: I think the Taco VR-25 or 30 would work that may be the direction I take.

    NY Plumber,

    Im sorry, the print was done for me by a member here, NRT Rob he can will know.
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • NYplumber
    NYplumber Member Posts: 503
    Thanks Tom
    :NYplumber:
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,565
    On one of the last Hydronix Talk segments , 2 men from Grundfos were the guests . They stated that the Magna is capable of being Delta T enabled with the addition of a simple sensor . Don't know what your flow requirements are but maybe that helps you
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    Mark Eatherton
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,785
    Tom said:

    Hot Rod,

    Yes that's what I wanted but haven't found a Delta T pump big enough, so I would have to install a variable speed control and it's probably not worth it unless tekmar makes a snowmelt and variable speed control all in one :wink: I think the Taco VR-25 or 30 would work that may be the direction I take.

    NY Plumber,

    Im sorry, the print was done for me by a member here, NRT Rob he can will know.

    What advantage do you see for a delta t pump on a snowmelt, certainly not comfort of cost of operation? I've yet to see any data, studies, white paper, simulation or analysis that running a delta T pump on a system like that adds any value. Have you?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Captain
    Captain Member Posts: 25
    I would remove the domestic water make up connection. This will dilute your Glycol concentration. Replace it with an Axiom mini glycol feeder (MF200).
    Mark Eatherton
  • NYplumber
    NYplumber Member Posts: 503
    HR, The only benefit of dt I can think of would be to sbow the pump down when approaching target slab temp. That would cause the heat to "back up" into the boiler and drive down the firing rate on a mod con.
    Let me know what you think.
    :NYplumber:
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 735
    Captain, Yes we have the Axiom in place, good suggestion.

    Nyplumber, Thats what I was hoping, but Hot Rod may be right that they will slow down on their own when the temps start coming back warmer.

    HotRod, You are right, I guess it would be smarter to let the pump just adjust to flow and roll.

    Thanks all.
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,651
    For what it's worth, Grundfos has temporarily withdrew the small Magna3 (Series 32) from the market for redesign. There's a glitch in the electronics. I found that out the hard way during a system start-up yesterday where I used one.
    Author - Hard Knocks: My Life Inside Boiler Rooms
    PHC News Columnist
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/minnich-hydronic-consulting-and-design
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
    I thought I heard something about that but was not sure what model.Thanks for the info.Pain in the **** finding out the hard way.
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 735
    Well I guess it's going to be a taco VR 20. I want to use the web connection and with Lochinvars Con x system. Ideally I want to be able to monitor the system and allow the caretaker to monitor the system from a laptop or cell phone
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    VR20 has a curve similar to some of the midsized MAGNA3 models. I don't believe there are issues with those.

    I'm hoping Taco has some smaller models in the works. We really need some options that are smaller than a VR15 but larger than the VT2218.
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