Mr Money Moustache follow up...

Mark Eatherton

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/02/06/the-radiant-heat-experiment-did-it-work/

Someone needs to straighten this know it all out. Look at the cheap skate plates he used, and then ask yourself why he can't deliver more than 14 BTU/Sq Ft/hr.

There ought to be a law.... Oh wait, there is, but it's virtually unenforceable with people like this. Free preheat and free radiant cooling. Also free condensate to support his bacterial growths inside and OUTSIDE the pipe!

At least he did admit to it pushing his "skills" to the limit, which MAY cause people to think twice about taking one of these projects on themselves.

Keep it civil...

I am headed to New Jersey today to teach 52 anxious inspectors and contractors tomorrow. (Sayreville Fire Training Center)

Ciao!

ME

Shane_2

What's the class on? Is it filled?

Sayreville is right up the road from me.

4Johnpipe

Its an inspectors CE class...I took the one about a month ago...good class! Had a few of the inspectors talk to me since then.

FranklinD

So in the end, he has a system that won't heat his house below a certain temp, has gross-smelling hot water (but that's okay, the slime film in the pipe is slowly getting rid of the smell), has hot water that could sicken or kill him and his family, can cause mold and whatnot to grow from the condensation, won't last because he used cheap components, and on and on...

But in the end, his experiment was a success. For some reason. I'm still not too clear on that.

It's funny to me because his summary states all the things (as negatives) that he was warned about by professional installers.

And his statement about 'until the industry advances a bit...' Really? The industry HAS advanced. He just opted not to USE any of those advancements, knowledge, or experience. And apparently hard work is just too dang hard for him.

Sorry to rant. Just my 2 cents.

Mark Eatherton

Shane, I don't know if these classes are closed yet, but at last count I had 52 people signed up. We (RPA/IAPMO) are under contract with Rutgers U. who provides continuing Education services to the trades and inspectors. Love to have you if you can get in. It will be an intense class.

John, thanks for the kudos and it was great meeting you and Rich.

ME

RobG

Didn't he just do the things that he said that he wouldn't in the last discussion? I thought that he was starting to get an understanding of the pitfalls of his design. I guess not.
Boy, he sure proved us wrong!

And if he has thousands of feet of tube in four loops then he has more problems than he is currently aware of.

Quote "In a nutshell, this involved running thousands of feet of PEX pipe under my existing wood floor via the crawlspace and circulating hot water through it with a pump and a good quality tankless water heater."

Paul Pollets

This guy built a low end system that has errors. That he has a bully pulpit for showing off a D minus example is the sad part.

RobG

Mark, are you still blocked from posting on his site or do you just choose not to?

MikeG

What is doubly troubling is reading the comments that follow his blog. They just love it. Most will do no more research than what is put out. They read it in a vacumn with no real context for comparison. Kind of like take a pill and you have a cure.

Mark Eatherton

Rob, I think I've been permanently blocked there, but I did give it a shot a while back, so I can sleep at night... Haven't ried and really don't want to. He has a cult following, and I am one of the curmudgeon plumbers he references. I suspect he's making money on the sale of components as well.

Rich_49

Mark , are you in Joisey ? Where ya staying

Mark Eatherton

Rich, sorry, got into Woodbridge late, had to work, went to bed early, woke up early and worked more, now headed to class. Will catch up with you the next time I am in state. Whirlwind tour this time.

Thanks for your continued support of the RPA!

ME

RobG

I guess his readers are "drinking the Kool-Aid"

Steamhead

This may explain at least some of it- copied from that thread:

Mr. Money Mustache February 16, 2015, 1:15 pm said:

I’m finding Marijuana is almost free on a per-serving basis, because it is so strong and it takes so little to have a good time.

On top of that, it is legal to grow your own here, which has resulted in a general gifting culture where bags and jars of excellent weed tend to just materialize and circulate among friends. Although I consume very little (maybe 1-4 Good Times per month), I always have plenty around. Stop by if you’re my town someday!

RobG

Steamhead said:

This may explain at least some of it- copied from that thread:

Mr. Money Mustache February 16, 2015, 1:15 pm said:

I’m finding Marijuana is almost free on a per-serving basis, because it is so strong and it takes so little to have a good time.

On top of that, it is legal to grow your own here, which has resulted in a general gifting culture where bags and jars of excellent weed tend to just materialize and circulate among friends. Although I consume very little (maybe 1-4 Good Times per month), I always have plenty around. Stop by if you’re my town someday!

So what are you saying Frank, pot impairs judgment? Look at Cheech and Chong, Lindsay Lohan and Justin Bieber. They made millions off pot and crack!

Gordy

Steamhead said:

This may explain at least some of it- copied from that thread:

Mr. Money Mustache February 16, 2015, 1:15 pm said:

I’m finding Marijuana is almost free on a per-serving basis, because it is so strong and it takes so little to have a good time.

On top of that, it is legal to grow your own here, which has resulted in a general gifting culture where bags and jars of excellent weed tend to just materialize and circulate among friends. Although I consume very little (maybe 1-4 Good Times per month), I always have plenty around. Stop by if you’re my town someday!

Well that explains the following, and perceived ingenuity. Another genius waiting to happen........and still waiting.

nicholas bonham-carter

There may be a number of people who are thinking of the cheap way out. Who can provide a concise explanation as to why the Mysterious Mustachioed multi-Millionaire Merchant of Misinformation is wrong. This should be in the library, so it can be pasted or linked into any reply. To the uninitiated, the cheap 200 KBTU looks the same as a much more expensive Mod-Con. This lack of knowledge allows people such as this to publish his piece, and be believed.--NBC

RobG

"On the positive side, I found that if you run hot water when the pump is off, water is drawn through the system through natural pressure differences. This means that in the summer, my floors will actually be cooled down by the cold water supply as it sucks unwanted heat from the house. So the floors will pre-heat the water before it hits the water heater. Double energy savings and free air conditioning.

Because the water supply is constantly refreshed and/or heated to 140 degrees Fahrenheit, bacteria growth and stale water in the pipes is not an issue at all."

Can someone explain his theory to me? How is cold water being drawn through the heating lines to cool the floor? And double the energy savings? He thinks he is being "cutting edge" but if he were to simply do a search on this site he will see that it's not a new idea and has been debunked over and over (and his workmanship looks like crap).

josieT

I had the misfortune of reading this post last summer. It swayed me to do the same staple up radiant. I wish there was more data on retrofits like this as far as btu output, damage to floors from moisture, noise from pex expansion on wood. Radiant on new floor I get. That can be planned ton overcome risks. Also he should have talked more on the original post about the overall house insulation and tightness.

Also if he's able to dry his boot on the floor, then isn't the temp too high for a subfloor staple up like this?

This is the big dilemma I faced with the internet. Too many varying opinions.

RobG

josieT said:

I had the misfortune of reading this post last summer. It swayed me to do the same staple up radiant. I wish there was more data on retrofits like this as far as btu output, damage to floors from moisture, noise from pex expansion on wood. Radiant on new floor I get. That can be planned ton overcome risks. Also he should have talked more on the original post about the overall house insulation and tightness.

Also if he's able to dry his boot on the floor, then isn't the temp too high for a subfloor staple up like this?

This is the big dilemma I faced with the internet. Too many varying opinions.

I read it on the internet so it's got to be true! Bonjour, I'm a French model.

Harvey Ramer

Josie, as you are well aware by this time, most of the information you pick up on this site is good and spoken by true professionals.

You should write a letter to this guy and explain to him how his blog, full of misinformation, steered you in the wrong direction and tell him how much extra money it cost you for your project. Money that would not have had to be spent if you had the correct info in the first place.

You can be sure others have and will, go down the same path you did. He needs to be aware of the financial damage he is causing, not to mention the stress of failed projects.

Steamhead

Well, it probably wouldn't bother him.................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUWD-FflZPI

josieT

Harvey - But I find that even in the circle of experts, there's still a lot of differences.

For example, which boiler, circulator or emitter to use can be highly subjective. A while back, I posted on which pex size to supply radiators and that brought on a lot of debate. How to zone is another area I found very subjective. A lot of you have very steadfast views on these areas based on your own experiences.

Putting this blogger aside (he's just an opportunist looking to make money through his blog like millions of others), even in the circle of radiant pros, I still find there's a lot of art in addition to science. Some variables are understandable - such as price of the install - or scale of comfort. I might be OK with a comfort of 8 on a scale of 1 to 10 if it's 10K cheaper vs the state of the art. Or similarly I might be happy to pay an extra $20 a month in gas bills for a less efficient system if the boiler cost is thousands less. But designers and contractors simply aren't able or maybe unwilling to talk in those specifics. I think the ideal contractor should be able to put a few options on the table and articulate the pros and cons of each. There simply isn't 1 way to design the system.

There's a lot of tradeoffs that people can live with. What I get for a few thousand plus or minus is often the missing piece of info. If I splurge and buy a higher end boiler, what does that truly mean - do I save just $5 a month? Most of you guys won't know that answer because every house is different and no boiler manufacturer would subject themselves to a lawsuit to provide that info. Or you might know, but your opinion on the 'right' thing to do is very strong - you simply don't want to design anything than the most optimal system possible.

If there was something I wish could be clearer in the hydronic industry is more data on installs and how systems actually performed given the multitude of variables such as the house performance.

Maybe Internet of Things will work it's way into the hydronic industry someday such that every pump, sensor, radiator etc could report it's data and there would be a way to collate performance numbers, failed parts, etc. Then mash that up with utility bill data and figure out what really works and what the true operating costs are. Not likely to happen in my lifetime but I do think the radiant industry could do more to help the average consumer with these decisions.

Harvey Ramer

josieT said:

Harvey - But I find that even in the circle of experts, there's still a lot of differences.

For example, which boiler, circulator or emitter to use can be highly subjective. A while back, I posted on which pex size to supply radiators and that brought on a lot of debate. How to zone is another area I found very subjective. A lot of you have very steadfast views on these areas based on your own experiences.

There is some dissent and a lot of discussion around a lot of these topics.

Your biggest job is finding the right heating professional. After you have one, let them do their thing. I guess that may ring a bit hollow with you since you have travelled that road once or twice, however, once you find the right contractor, your work is pretty much over.

Rich_49

This is not always the case Harvey . Due to the lack of qualified installers many are not willing to install a well thought out design for any number of reasons , mostly that they don't understand heat loss and building performance as having a huge bearing on design .

SWEI

josieT said:

I still find there's a lot of art in addition to science. Some variables are understandable - such as price of the install - or scale of comfort. I might be OK with a comfort of 8 on a scale of 1 to 10 if it's 10K cheaper vs the state of the art. Or similarly I might be happy to pay an extra $20 a month in gas bills for a less efficient system if the boiler cost is thousands less. But designers and contractors simply aren't able or maybe unwilling to talk in those specifics. I think the ideal contractor should be able to put a few options on the table and articulate the pros and cons of each. There simply isn't 1 way to design the system.

There's a lot of tradeoffs that people can live with. What I get for a few thousand plus or minus is often the missing piece of info. If I splurge and buy a higher end boiler, what does that truly mean - do I save just $5 a month? Most of you guys won't know that answer because every house is different

We always try to provide at least two options (and ideally three) along with some rough estimates of fuel savings and/or comfort to be had from each. An informed (or at least semi-informed) decision from a customer goes a long way towards preventing future disappointments.

nicholas bonham-carter

Wait until he sees this:

http://www.engadget.com/2015/06/13/water-tension-superhydrophobic-pump/?utm_source=Feed_Classic_Full&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Engadget&?ncid=rss_full