Replacing Old (theoretical) Sunrad

tgbrew

We moved into our house last summer and got to know the heating system over the winter. It is a gas-fueled steam boiler, which is 25 years old but seems to be working great.

The problem is that the second floor is 10-15 degrees warmer than the first floor, so it is hard to make it comfortable for everyone. I attempted to rebalance by replacing the vents to slow down the upper radiators and speed up the lower ones. That helped but I believe the heating system is underpowered downstairs. The two main radiators are below windows in the front of the house. The covers and recessed space makes it clear that there was once large recessed radiators there but they were switched out for small cast finned radiators that are long and maybe 8 inches high. They don't put out much heat. Now that heating season is over, I want to switch them (or at least one to start) with a Sunrad type recessed radiator that likely was originally there.

Any thoughts on that? Anything I should I know other than measuring and finding the best fit?

The second floor has traditional large radiators and gets very hot. I could downgrade some of those but it gets so cold on the first floor that I figure upgrade there makes the more sense. (The second floor radiators wouldn’t work on the first, so a switch isn’t plausible)

Thanks!

JStar

The best course of action, to avoid time consuming and expensive mistakes, is to perform a heat loss of the entire house - room by room. Then compare that to the output of each existing radiator. That will tell you exactly where the problem lies. If the radiators are adequate, your problem is in the structure/insulation of the house. If the radiators are too small, then it would make sense to replace them.

nicholas bonham-carter

This may be at least partly a lack of main venting issue.
The main vents should remove the air from the boiler steam chest, and main supply pipes, leaving somewhat slow radiator vents to handle the air from the runouts, and radiators themselves.
A rule of thumb is one Gorton #2 for every 20 feet of main. Keep the pressure below 1.5 psi, (basic functionality), or below 6 ounces, (economy, and comfort).--NBC

STEAM DOCTOR

I am with Jstar on this one. Removing radiators is costly. Removing radiators is even more costly if the radiators are not the root cause of the problem. The assumption that the original radiator installers knew what they were doing(not always the case and anyways, radiators might not be original). There are numerous causes of uneven heating. Poor venting(radiators or mains, poor boiler piping, dirty boiler water over sized or undersized boiler etc!). Your best option would be to get a qualified pair of "steam eyes" on the ENTIRE system.

RobG

Where are you located? There may be a steam expert close by that we can recommend.

tgbrew

Thanks for the advice. I'm not looking for a perfect system but just want a better balance. I figured that means more heat on the first floor and maybe downgrading some second floor radiators.

So how would I determine the heat loss of the entire house? Can I do it myself? If not, how much does it cost (ballpark)? I'm in North NJ and had one steam expert come that wanted almost $1k to switch some vents and clean the boiler sight glass (!). We obviously declined that offer and I’m cautious about bringing someone else in.

j a_2

I as well am with j star...Accomplish a room by room heat loss and compare it to the edr of the rooms radiator. No need to do a whole house heat loss for steam...It was also mentioned it may be a balancing issue...Thermostatic radiator valves are good, but should not be used to mask a problem ...Can u post a few pictures of the boiler and the near boiler piping... Understand you just want comfort, you must start with the basement beast,

JStar

I sent you a PM. My info is also in my signature here.

tgbrew

tgbrew

It took me a while to get these up. I'm almost positive the boiler is oversized because it short cycles. Thanks for the help everyone! (JStar - I'm messaging you)

Steamhead

Well, that piping around the boiler is almost certainly part of the problem. You're probably getting lousy steam quality, since there is no way to separate the steam from any water that leaves the boiler via the steam tapping. This is especially important on boilers with side outlets.

I suspect the taller risers to the second floor are doing some of the steam/water separation, which is why the second floor rads are heating better.

Here is a thread with pics of how one of these boilers should be piped:

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/151513/lets-start-the-new-wall-off-properly

Also do the room-by-room heat loss as well. You may have both problems.

When everything is straightened out, you'll love this system!

BobC

There is nothing good about that install. On that style of boiler both steam outlets have to be used. There is no header so you probably have very wet steam, that can cause short cycling and high fuel usage.

Get it piped properly

Bob

BobC

This radiation guide from utica shows how that boiler should have been piped on page 2. Pay attention to the warning not to reduce the pipe size from the boiler output connections.

Bob

tgbrew

Many thanks for the help with this. I found the manual. Any concerns about doing this myself?

Steamhead

Yes. That manual is way out of date. Here is the one you want, which matches the job I posted:

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/185533/Utica-Boilers-Peg-C.html?page=7#manual

tgbrew

Excellent - many thanks. Yes, that is the original that I found under the dust in the basement.

j a_2

Is it my eyes or are you feeding the boiler with hot water, also is your smoke pipe against a sheetrock wall...just asking

JStar

Nothing wrong with feeding hot water. The water heater will actually act as a de-aerator and distiller, feeding the boiler with relatively clean, and low oxygen-concentration water.

j a_2

Quite honestly I never considered filling any boiler with water off the water heater..A normal residential steam boiler should use very little water and a hot water boiler hopefully uses even less..we standardly feed off the cold in this area...Do you in your area feed off the hot, just asking?

tgbrew

Just saw this now. Our exhaust runs right to the chimney, so no sheet rock around. Yes, the boiler is fed from the hot water heater. I could easily switch it but it sounds like it will be fine. I'm curious to get some thoughts if this setup is ok (pic posted) with the return and water feed. For repipe, I'm wondering if this needs to be redone or I can just add the header and needed piping up top. That is copper pipe coming in as the wet return. I'm thinking the whole thing should be redone because there is no equalizer but I'm curious to hear thoughts. I need to move the water heater first to give some room to the right of the boiler so I have some time before i tackle this...

Hap_Hazzard

The only reason to avoid using hot water to feed a boiler is if there's an auto-feeder. Heating water causes dissolved solids to precipitate, and calcium crystals cause the auto-feeder valves to fail and you end up with a flooded boiler and hot water spewing out of your radiator vents. So, keep the hot water feed unless you decide to go with an auto-feeder (which I wouldn't recommend doing anyway).

You have plenty of room for an equalizer without moving the water heater. It all depends on where your header ends up. Yours doesn't need to be as long as the one in Steamhead's picture because you've only got one riser--I think.

If that fitting I see next to the riser elbow is a tee to a second main branch then I'd advise you use a second riser from your header to feed that branch. Main branches should always have their own risers. I learned that, and a lot of other things, from Steamhead. He's the best there is. JStar is pretty awesome too. You can learn a lot from these guys. Most of what you need to know has already been posted, but, as you've seen, they are always happy to answer questions and look at plans.