Steamhead

Harvey Ramer

Stay safe in Baltimore. Looks pretty ugly.

Tinman

I just read an article about it. Reminds me of my city in '68.

SWEI

Definite flashback material...

BobC

In 1968 I was CQ and I got a call to get the men suited up and issue rifles and ammo, our unit was going to go from Ft Benning to Atlanta to quell the rioting. We were under orders not to fire unless fired on, we were armed with M-14's (3 clips per man). We were all on the trucks ready to roll out when the order to stand down came; the national guard was going instead.

Forty seven years later and here we are again, it's a very sad commentary.

Bob

Steamhead

Getting worse- city schools and lots of other places are closed tomorrow.

This was a failure of the city's leadership, and was totally preventable. We have elections next year- one can only hope......

EBEBRATT-Ed

Sure seems like they took there eye off the ball for sure.

Mad Dog_2

When a mayor says - in front of cameras - that the folks that want to destroy will be afforded that opportunity, we are a country in VERY deep trouble. The solution is very simple: the good, silent majority need to decide which side they are on? Will you stand with the good or the evil? General Mac Arthur saw this coming many, many years ago: "...appeasement begets NEW and bloodier war." We are seeing this on American soil and abroad. Stay safe Frank. Mad Dog

Steamhead

She first became mayor when her predecessor was convicted of various corruption charges. I voted against her.

Fred

Mad Dog said:

When a mayor says - in front of cameras - that the folks that want to destroy will be afforded that opportunity, we are a country in VERY deep trouble. The solution is very simple: the good, silent majority need to decide which side they are on? Will you stand with the good or the evil? General Mac Arthur saw this coming many, many years ago: "...appeasement begets NEW and bloodier war." We are seeing this on American soil and abroad. Stay safe Frank. Mad Dog

I must have missed that interview because I didn't hear that. We put a lot of trust in our police force. They are suppose to be protectors of the public. Something is truely wrong when so many are killed at the hands of those who should protect AND something is wrong when so many in society feel crime is the only way they can survive. We take the life of some poor slob who steals a pack of cigaretts and we sentence a politician or CEO who embezzles millions to 18 months in a prison set up for white collar crime. Where is the justice? If I could go to jail for a few months, after extorting 4 or 5 million dollars, where else could I earn that kind of income? Not that I'd want to take from others but everybody has a different moral compass and so many seem to find that acceptable, if it benefits them.
I don't know what the answer is. If I did, I'd be shouting it from my rooftop. Where did we lose the "level Head" and the compasion for those who are less fortunate than we? This is not a political forum (and shouldn't be) but somehow we all (whatever our status in life) need to reflect a bit.
It is obvious that anyone traveling to Baltimore, right now, needs to be aware and stay safe. Unfortunately, it seems we are all in danger, even in the most benign settings, school, church, being stopped by a police officer for speeding or having a broken tail light, anywhere and everywhere.

JStar

Let's keep in mind that people are being targeted and often killed, without due process, because of a corrupt and mismanaged policing system. Riots and protests might be inconvenient, but none of that even compares to losing a loved one at the hands of a flawed system, or for any reason for that matter. The very least we can do is pay attention and talk about this issue, with the hope that it is resolved and doesn't continue to happen. People are angry, and angry for a reaosn.

vaporvac

We had this experience here in Cincinnati a little over 10yrs ago, and my business was right in the thick of it. It was about the only place undamaged. The police and community instituted changes that have made a real difference over time. So much so that our force was consulted about actions to help the situation in Ferguson. The will has to be there and in our case it took pretty dire conditions to make people stand up. Both sides have new appreciation of each other's viewpoint. Unfortunately, we're still a city with a lot of crime, of all sorts. It's a tough one.

Fred

vaporvac said:

We had this experience here in Cincinnati a little over 10yrs ago, and my business was right in the thick of it. It was about the only place undamaged. The police and community instituted changes that have made a real difference over time. So much so that our force was consulted about actions to help the situation in Ferguson. The will has to be there and in our case it took pretty dire conditions to make people stand up. Both sides have new appreciation of each other's viewpoint. Unfortunately, we're still a city with a lot of crime, of all sorts. It's a tough one.

@vaporvac , I think you are referring to the young unarmed black man (actually, if my memory serves me right he was about 17) who was shot and killed by a police officer there in Cincinnati. I think it was in the "Over the Rhine" area, at least that was where they had his funeral. I made the trip down for his funeral. So sad to see a family suffer from such a loss. No one can understand losing a loved one in such a senseless way unless and until (God Forbid) it touches them.

Danny Scully

Can we please not make our political views known on this website? It should be one of the rules...

Fred

Danny Scully said:

Can we please not make our political views known on this website? It should be one of the rules...

Recognizing the significance of each and every life is not political. It is compassionate. Sticking our heads in the sand, yet again, doesn't help fix things. I have been encouraged by this thread, more so than any I've recently read. Some choose to vent their frustrations in much less positive ways, as is obvious. Let this string be a voice, along with our common interests, and let those who would rather not share their views or are offended move on to other posts.

JStar

Fred said:

Danny Scully said:

Can we please not make our political views known on this website? It should be one of the rules...

Recognizing the significance of each and every life is not political. It is compassionate. Sticking our heads in the sand, yet again, doesn't help fix things. I have been encouraged by this thread, more so than any I've recently read. Some choose to vent their frustrations in much less positive ways, as is obvious. Let this string be a voice, along with our common interests, and let those who would rather not share their views or are offended move on to other posts.

I agree 100%. People are being systematically murdered at an alarming rate. We have no right to complain about reading about it on a website. We are incredibly lucky and privileged to even have that kind of sentiment. If people don't talk about it, it will become an even bigger problem; a problem that may affect all of us in time.

The best part of this forum is the people. Even on a strictly heating website, real life bleeds through.

Danny Scully

I am not sticking my head in the sand, nor am I suggesting that recognizing the significance of a human life is a political stand point, but interpret my words how ever you'd like Fred. What I am is a heating contractor who utilizes this website as it was intended, to discuss heating issues. I will take your advice though and move on to a heating related thread. Be safe Steamhead.

Gordy

It's one thing to conduct an organized protest, and completely another to start a riot creating chaos. This helps no one.

I see LA enforcement is implementing body cameras 7000 of them. How things change.

law enforcement officers have a delicate balance to deal with each, and everyday. Split second decisions are never easy when ones own life is at,stake. Or when forceful apprehension ends up being to much resulting in death.

JStar

These riots are not occuring because of one isolated incident. It's just that now the volcano has finally erupted.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/2015/04/28/read-these-three-articles-about-the-reasons-for-the-baltimore-riots/hiwtnroJUXeJFUPT35hSNO/story.html

This kind of mishandling of force has been going on in Baltimore for a very long time.

As for body cameras...people have been capturing police-murders on video and the officers still don't get indicted. What difference will body cams make, especilly when they can be turned on and off and the discretion of the officer? If we want to solve this issue, we'll have to suck up our pride and look at some other countries, like Switzerland and Iceland, for advice. The greater overall issue is knowing how to reduce crime through proper education and trust for one's community. All I know is that when people, even 12 year olds in Cleveland, are shot and killed for committing no crime, and with no due process, something is wrong and must be changed, regardless of how fearful and stressful an officer's job is every day.

Fred

It is so unfortunate when poor people (the majority of us) can't be heard through "Due Process". Who do you think pushed these people to be heard through the only vehicle they know? I don't condon riots and violence but think about those people that are killed at the hands of an arogant, self rightous police officer who considers himself above the law AND until the advent of phone cameras, were in fact above the law. Those victims are someone's son/daughter, father/mother, brother/sister, aunt/uncle. Find justice and the need for riots and destruction will go away.

Paul48

The victims now include innocent business owners, and those they employed. It's one thing to rise up against tyranny, it's another, to become a tyrant. They are destroying their own city. It's not the answer.

Fred

Paul48 said:

The victims now include innocent business owners, and those they employed. It's one thing to rise up against tyranny, it's another, to become a tyrant. They are destroying their own city. It's not the answer.

When people lose hope in their leadership, or are caused to believe they are of no value and disposable, they do things that aren't always rational. I make no excuses for the destruction but I also have no understanding of how our protectors, the police can take innocent lives either. The 12 year old playing in the park in Cleveland. They shot him before the cruiser eevn came to a stop. The 23 year old at Walmart, here in Beavercreek who was playing with a BB gun that he was purchasing, the poor guy stopped for a broken tail light and was shot 8 times for running away from the officer because he didn't want to go to jail because he couldn't pay his child support, the guy in New York, the list goes on and on and those are only the ones we hear about. What simpathy do you have for those families? Total them up and you have a legion, who have suffered a senseless loss of life, that far out numbers the loss of a few businesses.

JStar

Human lives always come before bricks and mortar. Talking about the looting and destruction is a media tactic used by low-level stations like Fox News and others to incite panic, fear, and division. If you look closer, without much effort, you'll see many good citizens in the city cleaning up after the rioters, and condemning those violent actions. The mainstream media has an agenda, and that is to keep you reliant on their product(s). Be afraid - buy more stuff.

JStar

Hatterasguy said:

JStar said:

The mainstream media has an agenda, and that is to keep you reliant on their product(s). Be afraid - buy more stuff.

If there was ever an industry that epitomizes the:

RACE TO THE BOTTOM

better than the TV media, I haven't seen it.

Less than worthless...........if that is possible.

Right on. I never trust a journalist whose career depends on advertising.

FranklinD

"Race to the Bottom"...I don't believe there is a more apt description than this. I gave up on watching 'news' channels a long time ago for that very reason. It isn't news anymore, it's better-dressed Jerry Springer and Maury.

I still read my local newspaper and watch my local news...for the most part, they don't get sucked in to the hype and craziness. They are far from perfect, but they do a good job.

I do check the national news online every day, and I'd say one out of 50-60 stories is well-written and impartial. But it's so hard to find I usually don't try too hard.

Paul48

Not to mention the correspondents that are in helicopter crashes. Well ....saw one....almost...

j a_2

I think they need better HEAT down there...

Mad Dog_2

Some Cops have, have certainly gone too far, namely, the one gunning down the fleeing man down south a few weeks ago. However, if you've done no wrong why run? Any time I have been pulled over, I am respectful and humble...cooperative. I've avoided many a ticket with this approach. This works with Plumbing inspectors too! The vast majority of police do a good job, some outstanding. Law and order are the keystones to a civil, democratic republic. We are seeing a growing pattern that is verging on anarchy. A rush to judgement by this president that poisons the well of fair trial. By the way, WHO YOU GONNA CALL when you are in fear for you or your family's life? Mad Dog

Fred

Mad Dog said:

Some Cops have, have certainly gone too far, namely, the one gunning down the fleeing man down south a few weeks ago. However, if you've done no wrong why run? Any time I have been pulled over, I am respectful and humble...cooperative. I've avoided many a ticket with this approach. This works with Plumbing inspectors too! The vast majority of police do a good job, some outstanding. Law and order are the keystones to a civil, democratic republic. We are seeing a growing pattern that is verging on anarchy. A rush to judgement by this president that poisons the well of fair trial. By the way, WHO YOU GONNA CALL when you are in fear for you or your family's life? Mad Dog

Unfortunately, it is life's experiences that teach us who to trust and who to run away from. Of course there are good police officers that "Serve and Protect" but there are those who consider themselves above the law and anything goes. Another "Notch" in their belt to brag about. Our experiences with the police are so varied, driven by race, gender and age. There are police out there that have preconcieved ideas about a person, their intent, their motives, even their value to society based on the color of their skin, their gender or whatever bias they were raised to have. Why does a person run AWAY? Usually because they are afraid. Running AWAY is not an aggressive move. It certainly does not justify taking that person's life.
WHO YOU GONNA CALL? Trust me, there are people who are robbed but because of who they are, they don't call the police. There are women who are raped, but because they are female, they believe no one will believe them so why put their business out for the world to redicule them. I know people, well educated, upstanding people who start to panic when a police cruiser pulls up behind them, out of fear that officer is scouring their car and driving pattern just to pull them over, because they are black.
Always remember, perception is each person's reality. History is a harsh teacher of life truths.
EDIT I will say one additional thing, as I've gotten old and gray, the last couple times I've been stopped for being a few miles over the speed limit, I have recieved much more courteous interaction with the police. I guess their parents did teach them to be respectful of old age. Not much of a reward for being near the end of life's road but it is what it is.

RobG

Mad Dog said:

Some Cops have, have certainly gone too far, namely, the one gunning down the fleeing man down south a few weeks ago. However, if you've done no wrong why run? Any time I have been pulled over, I am respectful and humble...cooperative. I've avoided many a ticket with this approach. This works with Plumbing inspectors too! The vast majority of police do a good job, some outstanding. Law and order are the keystones to a civil, democratic republic. We are seeing a growing pattern that is verging on anarchy. A rush to judgement by this president that poisons the well of fair trial. By the way, WHO YOU GONNA CALL when you are in fear for you or your family's life? Mad Dog

The Secret Service?

JStar

It's not about whether the victim was right or wrong, guilty or innocent. Police officers are not judge, jury, and executioner all in one. They should be trained to detain all alleged criminals; to afford them a fair trial as described in our constitution. Every citizen is innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. That's just as true for the wrongly accused as it is for the nastiest of mass-murderers. It may feel gratifying to shoot down a fleeing suspect, but if I was ever in that situation, I would like to have my day in front of a jury.

The police system is indeed a necessary part of our society. Protection of property rights is crucial to our progress and prosperity, along with scientific innovation, education, transportation, communicaiton, and low-interest capital. In times past, the only job of the police force was to protect property. Now, it's an appendage of the military system that protects the interests of the wealthiest Americans.

I'm opposed to using the police force as my personal babysitter. If I have a problem in my neighborhood, I try to solve it myself first. Communication, trust, and goodwill goes a long way. The more we call the police for help, the more reliant we become on them, and the more control we allow them to have in the name of "security". As an added bonus, when we become less reliant on their service, the less money will be funded into their budget, allowing our tax money to go toward important infrastructure, educaton, and community reform.

Mad Dog_2

Ha ha...definitely not them.....boy, how far they have fallen since that Clint Eastwood movie about them..... What a laughing stock they have become. They really need to clean house there, before something tragic happens. Mad Dog

Paul48

"Unfortunately, it is life's experiences that teach us who to trust and who to run away from"


That is part of the problem with what is going on in Baltimore. No one is arguing that bad police officers take lives, all the time. It can't continue.
What they are doing in the streets further divides the races. It confirms the beliefs of an old white woman, that crosses the street when she approaches a group of young black men. After all, they will don masks, and rob her. There was a reason Dr. King insisted on non-violent protests.

Gordy

Bubble headed bleach blonde, dirty laundry etc. Don

Mad Dog said:

Some Cops have, have certainly gone too far, namely, the one gunning down the fleeing man down south a few weeks ago. However, if you've done no wrong why run? Any time I have been pulled over, I am respectful and humble...cooperative. I've avoided many a ticket with this approach. This works with Plumbing inspectors too! The vast majority of police do a good job, some outstanding. Law and order are the keystones to a civil, democratic republic. We are seeing a growing pattern that is verging on anarchy. A rush to judgement by this president that poisons the well of fair trial. By the way, WHO YOU GONNA CALL when you are in fear for you or your family's life? Mad Dog

Well said Mad Dog! My view is if you don't break the law no worries.

Let's face it folks this is not a new development. The problem of good, and bad law enforcement has been around since its conception. It's only more in our face now because of media, and because there are many more people to make up our population, and legal enforcement. With numbers comes higher probabilities of things going array.

I know some law enforcement personnel. It's not an easy career. Depending on where your location is. The adrenal stops for about a 2-4 hour window in a 24 hour period.

Put yourself in their shoes for a minute. Pull over a car day or night with super tinted windows for what ever reason. How would you like to walk up to that vehicle not knowing what's going on inside until you get up to the drivers window. Pulled over for what ever reason.

No one thinks a 12 year old or younger has ever shot at a cop before?

My wife's boss a female just had a Latin Kings member buy the house next door to her. On move in day they "the group helping move the buyers" kicked a hole in her fence, and kicked her basset hound in the face. A girl that was there about nine had a stick pointed at her as if it were a gun and said your gonna die lady.

Little do they know she is a competition hand gun shooter, and teaches conceal carry. Who is she going to call S&W . Believe me she will use it.

Put enough rats together in a confined area with limited Life sustaining essentials, and they will start to kill one another. That has been scientifically proven.

Also I think our legal system is a bit lose if you look to other countries. They may be what we call third world, but maybe if you stand to lose a hand for stealing, or get a good canning in the public square crime may not be as rampid.

As for Mr. gray he had 18 prior arrests the latest was March. Pretty much all drug related. Who do you suppose he was selling drugs to? Hmmmm. The circle continues.

JStar

Paul48 said:

"Unfortunately, it is life's experiences that teach us who to trust and who to run away from"


That is part of the problem with what is going on in Baltimore. No one is arguing that bad police officers take lives, all the time. It can't continue.
What they are doing in the streets further divides the races. It confirms the beliefs of an old white woman, that crosses the street when she approaches a group of young black men. After all, they will don masks, and rob her. There was a reason Dr. King insisted on non-violent protests.

And then MLK was killed by the CIA. Our system doesn't like dissenters of any sort. Nowadays, it's handled more discreetly. We have a long history of racism that we need to confront and resolve. There are so many factors to consider in cases like this. The preceding history is a tangled mess of what-if's and should-have's.

And who said only blacks are looting and rioting? Plenty of other races are involved. It's not about race. It's about personal choice. Making it about race only further separates us. I could show a dozen examples of good ol' white boys rioting and looting after a college sporting event. Nobody seems to talk about that very much.

Fred

"There was a reason Dr. King insisted on non-violent protests."
It's a sad comentary that that concept of non violence didn't permeate across all the races, during those years. So many lives lost because of skin color. Have you ever listened to the song sung by Billie Holiday, "Strange Fruit" ? It is a song about the lynching of so many black men, hanging from that strange tree. Not to digress but my parents let me, their 15 year old son travel on a train all through the south as we picked up people and added more cars to the train on our way to Washington for the March in August, 1963. As I said earlier in my post, we are all a composition of what life has put before us. Some of us have overcome most of those fears, others, not so much. Violence and destruction are symptoms of a greater issue. People who have lost hope, often lose their moral compass. In today's society, turning the other cheek is often seen as a sign of weakness, not moral integrity. It only takes a few bad apples to spoil so many of life's pleasures.

JStar

Gordy said:

Bubble headed bleach blonde, dirty laundry etc. Don

Mad Dog said:

Some Cops have, have certainly gone too far, namely, the one gunning down the fleeing man down south a few weeks ago. However, if you've done no wrong why run? Any time I have been pulled over, I am respectful and humble...cooperative. I've avoided many a ticket with this approach. This works with Plumbing inspectors too! The vast majority of police do a good job, some outstanding. Law and order are the keystones to a civil, democratic republic. We are seeing a growing pattern that is verging on anarchy. A rush to judgement by this president that poisons the well of fair trial. By the way, WHO YOU GONNA CALL when you are in fear for you or your family's life? Mad Dog

Well said Mad Dog! My view is if you don't break the law no worries.

One of the issues is that some of these victims have not broken any laws at all, and were still killed or injured for no apparent reason.

Being a police officer is no doubt scary stuff, and all my respect goes out to the ones who put on that uniform and step into horrible situations every day. But, like any other trade, you should be well equipped to handle the inherently high stress and dangerous situations that come with the territory. A lot of these killings are happening because the wrong person was hired for the job. The training is a joke. The application process is even worse. And repeat offenders keep winning their jobs back in different towns.

I think we all agree that every group of people has their share of rotten apples. My biggest concern is that we allow those broken cogs to remain on the wheel and destroy the entire system.

JStar

By the way...where is Steamhead? This thread of good intentions got completely hijacked (totally guilty here).

Gordy

My fear is one day you will need law enforcement, and they will do nothing.

Fred

"I know some law enforcement personnel. It's not an easy career. Depending on where your location is. The adrenal stops for about a 2-4 hour window in a 24 hour period.

Put yourself in their shoes for a minute. Pull over a car day or night with super tinted windows for what ever reason. How would you like to walk up to that vehicle not knowing what's going on inside until you get up to the drivers window. Pulled over for what ever reason."
No career, done well is easy or without stress. They picked the career path they are on. If they can't handle the stress, do what the rest of us do; find another career. Don't take your fear and/or stress out on the first person that comes along.
Maybe Mr. Gray did have a record for selling drugs. That by itself is not just cause to take a life. If he went through the judicial system for those crimes, he's paid up for those crimes. One has to ask themselves, if you follow the food chain, where does it stop and who kept him supplied with drugs?
Besides that, we are not talking about gangs here, we are talking about individuals across this country who were shot down like animals for little and in most cases nothing other than being where they were, in Cleveland at a park playing, At a Walmart in Beavercreek, in NY selling single cigarettes, etc. Yes it's nothing new, that's why people are so frustrated and retaliatory.

JStar

Gordy said:

My fear is one day you will need law enforcement, and they will do nothing.

That is my fear as well. We 100% need officers that work for us and towards a safer community. We don't need unused military vehicles and tactical weapons/equipment being shipped to police departments all across the country in order to crack down on petty crimes. We have a problem with crime, and we're addressing it in a manner that is neither heathy nor productive. It's like trying to cure diarrhea by buying a bigger toilet.

BobC

I grew up in the projects in the 50's as did my two brothers, we all got into jams but nothing serious; we knew if we screwed up we would get a lot worse at home than what we got from the cops. We were told to always be respectful towards cops and to realize there are good cops (most of them), indifferent cops, and bad cops. Do what they say when they say and sort it all out later - pissing them off would just lead to grief. Back then it was usually a billy club in the gut, now some seem to think it's open season on wise guys.

It is a much more violent world out there now, what used to be handled with fists is all to often handled with guns. Being a cop is a tough job, they have to have good training and they have to be held to a higher standard. Good policing starts at the top, it flows down from the police commissioner to the captains, sergeants, and the patrolmen. People have to believe they will be treated fairly, only then will they respect the police. Any cop that is not fit for the job has to be found and weeded out.

Some cities do a great job (NYC and Boston to name two), they are not perfect but they should be emulated.

Bob