Petro Pac Boiler info

dobro23

Does anyone have any info in a Petro Pac Boiler? I Assume its from the 1950s and was probably originally a steam system before it was converted to hot water. The Model Number is PPF 1260 and the Serial is "DJM" Firing Rate was 11.3 GPH and output was 1260 Mbh. Specifically, I'm trying to find out approximately how many gallons of water the vessel holds but am interested in any info really. I have some pics if necessary but none that are very meaningful. thanks in advance.

Steamhead

Look at the system piping. If the supply and return lines are all the same size, it was always a hot-water system.

The misguided idea of converting steam systems to hot-water didn't get started until well after that boiler was made.

EBEBRATT-Ed

That's a Petro steel firebox boiler. They didn't make there own boilers. I may have some information but I don't have it with me. I will post in a day or two after I look for it.
Petro later became a company called Space Conditioning (late 50s I think) Then became part of Dunham-Bush in the 60s until they closed down. I believe they sold that boiler for years with various name on it.

dobro23

I thought the system may have been steam originally because there are several 4" and 5" iron runs leaving and returning to the boiler room but they are eventually reduced down using eccentric couplings before attaching to the boiler in a dropped header configuration on the supply. The return side does like like traditional hot water but the return header also has fittings that look newer than what i think is original. There are over 100 Cast iron column type radiators in the building which is about 40000 sq ft and was built in 1917. I drained the system last week and estimate that i pumped out about 1600 gallons. There is also another Pacific Steel Boiler next to this Petro one but it hasn't worked in years. The Pacific boiler appears to have been coal fired but was eventually outfitted with an oil burner. I think when the pacific boiler failed, they installed the Petro boiler next to it in tandem or maybe for a short time, they were both working together. In my mind, I don't know why you would make a hot water system so large. Im assuming the boilers each hold 150 -200 gallons. does that sound about right?

Steamhead

That has always been hot-water. It circulated by gravity when it was first installed, there was no pump. That's why the supply and return mains are so large.

SWEI

dobro23 said:

There are over 100 Cast iron column type radiators in the building which is about 40000 sq ft and was built in 1917. I drained the system last week and estimate that i pumped out about 1600 gallons.

You have a fabulous efficiency opportunity there. A properly implemented modulating condensing boiler system will sing in that application. Where is this located?

RobG

SWEI said:

dobro23 said:

There are over 100 Cast iron column type radiators in the building which is about 40000 sq ft and was built in 1917. I drained the system last week and estimate that i pumped out about 1600 gallons.

You have a fabulous efficiency opportunity there. A properly implemented modulating condensing boiler system will sing in that application. Where is this located?

I would do several mod-con's, you will get an exceptional turn down ratio and redundancy. I would expect at least a 50% reduction in fuel usage. (Do you have gas on site?)

dobro23

its the boiler room in a retreat house that belongs to a local church in ct. there is no gas in the area so my company is sticking with oil. the plan is 2 energy kinetics ek2 frontiers as the load is just over 400K. we will be using a tekmar to stage the boilers, a hydraulic separator, and energy recovery consoles if i understood correctly. the root of this whole thread was to estimate the size of the new expansion tanks. that it why i was so interested in how much water the previous boilers held. stopped by the jobsite today and discovered not only do i have 4" and 5" pipe but also 4 1/2" pipe! do they still make fittings for this???!!!!

SWEI

Sounds good, though I did not see mention of ODR or mixing anywhere?

dobro23

Im not sure what you mean..

EBEBRATT-Ed

You can buy 3 1/2" pipe, not sure about the fittings though. I have also seen 7" pipe. Never herd of 4 1/2 though.

Steamhead

4-1/2" did exist, but I don't think has been used much since at least the 1930s.

ODR means outdoor reset- varying the water temperature according to the heat load based on the outdoor temperature. The Tekmar control should be staging the boilers based on the heat requirements, so that would be an ODR control.

Mixing is where you run the boilers hot enough to keep them from condensing, and mix some return water with the hot water from the boilers so the rads will get only enough heat to satisfy the load based on outdoor temperature.

dobro23

got it. I knew i've seen ODR somewhere. The system 2000's dont use ODR typically because of the onboard manager which regulates the circs and zone valves based on return water temp. but maybe ODR should be looked into given the size of this system? They also have a panel called and energy recovery console which may alleviate these concerns. not sure exactly how it all interfaces. as far as mixing, wouldn't that all be done in the hydraulic separator? the plan is to use that between the primary and injection loops of the system.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Steamhead is correct. I googled and found they made 3 1/2, 4 1/2, 7" and 9"& 11" pipe.

SWEI

dobro23 said:

maybe ODR should be looked into given the size of this system?

I understand that EK does not believe in ODR per se, but that would almost certainly be my approach.