Water Hammer after plumbers started up the house that was winterized

MBCottage

I had my annual furnace/steam/radiator system inspected December 2, 2014. House was winterized December 3rd 2014.
Plumbers arrived March 5, 2015 to start the house. I was traveling home while this was being done (as per normal)
Arrived and the house was warm, but heard severe banging. Not radiator expansion/contraction clanking. Shakes the windows and floors. Contacted plumber. He said water got into the pipes and he had to replace several steam vents. (They were working fine before shut down.) I came home to a wet wool rug, damaged furniture and wood floors.
Plumber said he was trying to find a steam guy. I told him the person who completely refitted my furnace knows my house and my system. The plumber also shut the valve off to the auto filler??? Didn't tell me why.
Next day heating service guy came and said that the boiler was over fired and caused water to be pushed into the pipes and radiators. He said the new steam vents were replaced due them being clogged by sediment from the water in the pipes. At $75 a vent and this didn't fix the water hammer issues as well NOW having two radiator that do not heat. This is not a big house. But the hammering continues.
Help before I get suckered into another half truth and a 3rd large bill.

Steamhead

Where are you located?

MBCottage

Southern NH

nicholas bonham-carter

Did the winterizers put any anti-freeze into the boiler, and if so was the system thoroughly flushed out? Only pure water should be in the boiler.
Have the pressuretrol taken off, and the pigtail thoroughly cleaned, including any tapping into the boiler. A new low pressure gauge will show if the pressuretrol is working properly to keep the pressure below 1.5 psi.
Order some of the steam books from the shop here, so you can show them to your plumber!--NBC

Steamhead

You clearly need a Steam Man- there are several on our Find a Contractor page in Massachusetts who might be sweet-talked into coming up to NH. Go here:

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/state/MA

JUGHNE

Is it possible the start up plumbers thought this was a hot water boiler and filled the system completely full of water? (Or didn't pay attention during the filling) If so then sediment sitting in pipes/rads got loosened by back flushing and plugged air vents, controls and pressure gauge.

Heating guy said boiler was over "fired" could he have meant over "filled"? Sight glass would show correct water level for boiler water.

Now if this happened water could have been backed up and the added weight could cause pipes to sag, retaining pockets causing water hammer. (Some pipe slopes could have been borderline before this and old hangers might have given up a little more stretch.)

You need a steam person to check this out.

And we all love pictures of boiler and piping around it!

MBCottage

This plumber does this every year for me. Sent new guys this time. In December, They blew out the system put antifreeze in all the traps. Emptied the furnace. I don't believe there was antifreeze put in the boiler. One of the guys is a licensed plumber who used to work for the oil/heating company. He would know better. Next day, my technician showed up had to make adjustments and said it was over fired and pushed water into the pipes and radiators. Note: (My house was about 5-10 degrees inside at the time when the plumbers restarted the house) The technician added a cleaner (not a lot) because of the age of the house and pipes. The two radiators that don't heat, hammer the loudest and spew water all over the place. I hear gurgling in others. How do I get water out of the pipes and radiators??

JUGHNE

If the back flushing (overfill) happened it could have loosen debris and sludge that is partially plugging the return pipe, making the system retain water everywhere causing hammer, gurgling, and spitting. IMO

You sould have the same "fire" this year as in previous years.

MBCottage

The problem is: I didn't see what they did or didn't do. Even if I was here, I wouldn't know the difference. This is a small town and no one wants to "out" anyone. I know this: Plumbers broke it. A lot of water spewed out of one radiator. Others leaking intermittently. Left me with a mess and say they don't know what else to do.

MBCottage

Oh, even with the auto filler shut down, the sight glass is clear and condensate returns...maybe a little over the fill line.

Fred

Someone or something ( defective auto water feeder) obviously over filled the boiler/system. I am very doubtful that the boiler is over-fired and even if it is, I doubt that it would back water all the way up into and out of the radiators.
The water hammer is probably water sitting in the radiators that hammer or the pipe runs to them. As has been said, the pitch of those pipes and maybe even the Mains has probably been compromised as a result of the weight of all that water.

MBCottage

@Steamhead, I live 5 miles from the MA border. Problem is I don't know anyone I can trust or get referrals from. Some plumbers in MA aren't licenced in NH. It's Sunday. I was hoping I could figure this out. I don't even know what to set the steam vent dials on, if I should have the radiators full open, or run the furnace at a higher temp for a specific amount of time. Both left me with the same problem (not fixed) and I expect big bills are on the way for ???

JUGHNE

When firing/steaming how much does the water in the sight glass move? And it stays clear all the time?
Does the pressure gauge show any movement when steaming?

Would the rad valves been shut partially off? You want them completely open or completely shut. They are probably older and do not shut off 100%. So completely open is the best bet.

Radiators should drain back towards valves. There is a small chance that that changed being in a frozen house for 3 months.

In one rare case I've had a pipe freeze without breaking and the ice inside loosened enough junk to plug things up once thawed out.

Steamhead

MBCottage said:

The problem is: I didn't see what they did or didn't do. Even if I was here, I wouldn't know the difference.

This is why you need a steam man. This would probably take some figuring out, which can be hard to do without being there. Many of the contractors on that list are regular posters here, and from this we know they know their steam.

And, most importantly, a good contractor will take the time to explain things to you. Steam heat is not that complicated.

I'd come up myself, but the travel time from Baltimore would be a bit much ;-)

nicholas bonham-carter

Leave the vent dials at their lowest setting, and flush out whatever chemical they put into the boiler. The resulting solution is probably giving an unstable boil, like rice on the stove. Oil in the water from any pipe work on the system can produce the same result, especially when mixed with some boiler snake oil. If they had some antifreeze left over from filling the traps, they may have put some into the boiler, "just in case", and that would make a boil over.
Maybe someone can come up with a list of things to do for winterizing your system, which will work properly in the future.
I doubt that any permanent damage has been done by overfilling the pipes, and that all will return to normal with some routine cleaning/flushing etc.---NBC

JUGHNE

You mentioned the person who installed this, is he available?
If it has been in use for several years without issues, then he must know something about steam.

RobG

JUGHNE said:

You mentioned the person who installed this, is he available?
If it has been in use for several years without issues, then he must know something about steam.

He's the guy who piped it in copper.

JUGHNE

Did I miss pictures?? Copper??

The traps they put antifreeze in were probably the plumbing drain traps, (we hope).

Water level bounce in sight glass (while having a good boiling/fire) should tell a lot.

As Nicholas stated a good clean up is in order.

MBCottage

I've been texting him. He just refitted the system in 2013. Gutted it and replaced all the parts inside and out (including the auto filler) He inspects it yearly. He says the plumbers "claim" they did not over fill it....he says pressure trol is working. He feels adding more cleaner will get the water out. Not sure why. He added some cleaner Friday but nothing's changed. Now I'm worried that adding cleaner will foul/clog all the new $75.00 ea. steam vents. I have 13 radiators.
Sorry! I know I sound like I'm whining. I just don't have the facts, just what I'm told...I'm a nurse and a researcher. People I can fix...steam boilers and radiators...not so much.

Fred

Is the boiler running now? Is it still hammering? There is a possibility that they flooded the system, using the maunal water valve (and maybe forgot to turn it off) or the auto feed failed to shut or somehow partially froze open (you indicate the house was 5 to 10 degrees whan you got home). It is also possible when they over-filled it, some of the water in the mains/radiator runs/raadiators froze before it could return to the boiler. If you are able to run the boiler, it may hammer for a while untill any frozen water can thaw and make it's way back to the boiler. Watch the water level in the boiler so that that returning water doesn't over-fill it again.

MBCottage

@Steamhead, thank you for the offer. If I could afford it, I'd do it. I'm already into it with the plumbers for Winterizing/dewinterizing/ not to mention messing my furnace up, then a full day with the heating technician, then all those new vents that I didn't need before last Thursday. Yeah. I just came up to check on the house with all the snow...(and to relax Ha!) I have a week left. So kinda need this to be resolved pronto.
Wish me luck!

MBCottage

@JUGHNE , @Fred I check the sight glass several times a day and night. I left the house for 2 hours to buy food and water.
(Since 3/5) the system is running right now. The water goes down to about 1"-1. 1/4" it bobs a small bit. Hammering the whole time. The gauge next to the pressure trol doesn't move. @0 psi
The auto feeder button is engaged but the water valve to it is shut off.

Fred

I'm not surprised that the pressure gauge is at 0. it is probably a 0-30PSI gauge and they hardly ever move. When you say the auto feeder button is engaged, do you mean it is pushed in and doesn't dis-engage? if so, you want to leave the valve to it shut off until that is fixed. You still want to check thee water level, when the boiler is not running and bring the water level in the boiler back up to where it should be. Like it or not, you need to get a good steam guy in there to assess the situation and get it fixed for you.

MBCottage

So here are pics. Sight glass while running, pressure trol and gauge, auto filler plumbing showing off. Auto filler engaged (2x sorry) damage to the wall from the 5psi vent all the way to the ceiling, that happened before I got here. Plumbers replaced that. And the box for the $75.00 vents (13)

JUGHNE

At least the gauge doesn't read 5 or 8; something too high.
There should be a gray box near the gauge with a scale on the front. Pictures would help people here to perhaps see what might be going on. Boiler and piping around it, top to bottom. A sample of radiator vent types if any are not matching. Pipes hanging around the basement that you can see.

MBCottage

@Fred. No the feeder button works. Just caught it pushed in. Not running images. Ran down cellar as soon as it clicked off. So almost real time.

Fred

That McDonnell Miller 101A water feeder is definately stuck in the open position. The guys who came to de-winterize the house probably didn't realize the feed button did not return to the closed position after they filled the boiler. leave the valve to that off until that gets repaired (probably replaced).
The Cut-in setting on the Pressuretrol is set too high. It should be set at .5 PSI but that isn't causing the problems you have right now. It should be adjusted down though. There is another white dial inside that Pressuretrol that should be set at "1" also.

JUGHNE

Thank you, I'm always behind. Any pictures of piping at the floor where the pipe goes into the bottom of the boiler?

MBCottage

@Fred Even tho it pops back up when the furnace shuts down? I know it shouldn't call for water every time it runs. Would shutting the system down and having a compressor blow everything out be suggested? I have 2 guys I'm going to call tomorrow. I'll let them know what's been done to my knowledge. Not local. Hopefully they can do a full system check and figure this out.

Everyone's suggestions have been very helpful. Thank you!!!
I feel foolish because I don't know what questions to ask.
If anyone can post a list of questions, that would be great.
Any ideas or suggestions would be helpful.
Linda

Fred

It should only call for water when the Low water Cut off shuts the boiler down due to low water. Either that auto feeder is faulty or possibly the Low water Cut-off switch is faulty/shorted.
As far as what to ask the service people, the best question to ask iss if they are knowledgable of steam systems. If they are, they should be able to look at, and listen to your sytem running. If they try to tell you the water hammer is normal for steam, show them the door.
Let them look at the Pressuretrrol. If they suggest the settings are too low, show them the door. The current settings are too high.
If they want to add chemical cleaners to the boiler, again, show them the door. It is very possible the boiler and mains may need cleaning to get any dirt out of it but they should be flusing things out, not adding chemicals.
Ask them to look at the mains and radiator runs and check them for pitch, especially where you hear the loudest hammer. If they ask you what you mean by pitch, that's a none starter, show them the door.
They should be checking that auto feeder and the Low water Cut-off and make sure they work properly.
They should want to check your radiators to make sure they have the proper pitch as well.

kcopp

I am in Dover....

JUGHNE

All the water you see in the boiler when cooled off should eventually return as the water boils. It sounds like the water is slow returning because it is backed up somewhere in the system. I would not be quick to add more water but wait to see if the level slowly comes up with the boiler off. (Easy for me to say as it 55 degrees here )

The largest pipe coming of the top or high side of the boiler is the steam main and goes up and is the highest part (usually-not always) of the steam main and should slope to drain the water all the way around the house and back to the bottom of the boiler. At the end of the steam heating pipe then the pipe might get smaller and it has to drain the condensed water back to the boiler. At the bottom of the drain the pipe might lay on the floor and then raise up to go into the bottom of the boiler. That constitutes a water trap and also a sludge collection point. That would be the first place that I would take apart and look at.
(Just like if your kitchen sink trap is partially plugged the water will back up or be slow to drain.) This could be what your problem is. The water backs up everywhere and steam runs into it and you hear it.

MBCottage

@Fred Brilliant! Thank you! I will post when this done and what is found. Possibly to help others in the situation.
I PROMISE: If the person I have coming fails any of the pertinent questions. I WILL SHOW THEM THE DOOR!
@kcopp send me your info. Thx

kcopp

This is one of the reasons I am not a fan of water feeders. I really prefer that the homeowner know the water usage and fill the boiler on a regular basis... if needed.
They pay more attention to the system as a whole.
Not to mention its another thing to break.

Fred

kcopp said:

This is one of the reasons I am not a fan of water feeders. I really prefer that the homeowner know the water usage and fill the boiler on a regular basis... if needed.
They pay more attention to the system as a whole.
Not to mention its another thing to break.

I had that very same feeder on my boiler. I took it off because it started to let water into the boiler. There is a screen in the unit that gets plugged up and then the crud backs into the water valve itself, keeping it from completely shutting off. I too prefer to check the water level myself.

MBCottage

@kcopp I live in Texas and spend 5-6 months of the year in New Hampshire. Thanks for your input though.

j a_2

Ok Here is what we know, you went away and had the boiler winterized, prior to you leaving everything was fine as far as you were concerned…You had an individual come in to put it back on line….Now you have issues….Questions, did the person you hire stick around long enough to make sure the house was warm, I hope so…It is possible the feeder or low water cutoff failed after he left…Don’t over think this issue, sounds like the feeder needs addressing..Steam boilers get overfilled for numerous reasons all the time…I highly doupt, the overfilling clogged up any main,.nor do they need blowing out…Fix the feeder and let it rip…It will bang for a few cycles then dissipate overtime…If for some reason the rads are not pitched correctly now, then they most likely never worked..correctly, but now it is magnified and much more noticeable..

Fred

We also know the water supply to the feeder has been shut off since before she returned home and that the boiler has been running for several days now, since she has been home and still hammering so it obviously is not going to quiet down on its own. The LWCO is not going to create hammer so those both the LWCO and feeder, while I believe they need service or replacement, are out of the equation at this point as it relates to hammer. I agree, the mains aren't an issue but pitch and or a blocked return, holding water up to the level of the mains (since it was flooded, are possibilites that have to be looked at.

nicholas bonham-carter

I still think the water is contaminated with antifreeze/boiler snake oil, and a good flush out should be the next step. Is there a floor drain nearby? This may be a system which needs some more main venting, and pressure regulation, judging by the stain on the wood above the vent (why is that vent on the other side of the nice tongue and groove wall from the radiator?) Diagnosing, and fixing these issues will make the system easier to put into winter mode in the future.
If you can fix people, and use the scientific method, you can certainly fix these problems with help from here.--NBC

j a_2

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Hi j a phinney here should it get down to it and u need assistance. Contact Berberan mechanical. 6177977381 excellent steam man in Quincy. He assumed my day to day operation. I am for the most part there when and if he needs me...I have been teaching him steam heating since he was a kid....lic.and insured and registered with mass state plumbers board....He is a 26 years old but thinks like me.....also a former Marine and starting out...But again a very very good steam guy

j a_2

When I figure out how to do it my existing ad will reflect the changes