Which brand and model of steam boiler is the most reliable?

frank11k

I have to replace an older natural gas steam boiler for a one line system. I've been doing some research, and it seems like every brand I look at gets mostly bad reviews. Even the brands that I would have considered to be dependable and had, in the past, made boilers that lasted for decades, now seem to be getting terrible reviews on the the boilers they have made in the last few years. I'm also seeing a lot of reviews that complain about companies not standing behind their warranties, which isn't very comforting. I'm at a loss as to which brand or model to go with. I hate to think I'll have to be replacing a boiler again in a couple of years.

Mark N

Can't blame the boiler manufacturer for poor installations, pre existing leaky system that use excessive feed water, or poor quality water, low ph or excessive chlorides

EBEBRATT-Ed

The brand of boiler is less important than the INSTALLER. You need to find the right STEAM installer. There's not many contractors that understand STEAM. Just because an installer can put pipe together doesn't make him a steam expert. You can search for a contractor on this site. There are real experts here.

Post where you are located, size of boiler etc. someone will respond.

Use the boiler he recommends, Smith, Weil Mclain, Peerless, Slant Finn.....There all good if installed correctly.

Ed

frank11k

Well, that helps me think of some more things to consider about getting the new boiler in. I have some confidence in the professional I'm having install the boiler. I think my local water's pretty good. I know my radiators leak a little steam and I guess I'd better mention that to the contractor. I still have to figure out which boiler to go with though.

Mark N

What is your existing boiler, how old is it, and why are you replacing it? Did it rot out and is leaking? If so eliminate the leaks.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Gas or oil? and what size do you need? You need to measure all the radiation. That is the ONLY way to com up with the correct size. If you have confidence in your installer and he is a steam expert (which is what you need) he will know what boiler to use.

frank11k

The old boiler was a Weil-McLain and it was about twelve years old and I hadn't ever had any problems with it. It didn't leak. During the recent severe cold in the Northeast, the pilot light went out (while we were away for the week, visiting family). When I came home, the house was really cold, but I didn't know how long the boiler had been out. As I said, prior to this, there hadn't been any problems with the boiler, and I was able to relight the pilot light. The intake water line had frozen though (although it hadn't broken) so I had to get some space heaters going. As things thawed out, I realized that one or more parts of the boiler had frozen and broke, along with several of my water pipes. My radiators are older than the boiler, but I doubt they contributed to the boiler failing. I do want to cover all the issues as I replace it though.

ChrisJ

Curious when the last time that boiler was service by a professional? Pilot light and burner assembly cleaned etc?

In my opinion the brand of boiler is moot.

What is important is that it is installed properly and that the system remains leak free and makeup water is kept to a minimum.

Make up water should be manually added slowly either right before, or at the beginning of a heating cycle to ensure it is boiled as soon as possible. Never expect an autofeeder to maintain the level as they don't keep the proper level. They also often add water near the end of a cycle which is the absolute worst thing you could ever do. Autofeeders are nothing more than an emergency device to keep the heat on if you end up with a leak and are not home.

I also highly recommend using water treatment to reduce corrosion and mineral buildup.

Regardless of the brand and age it should be serviced by a professional to ensure it is working correctly, pilot and all. I believe most recommend this annually.

nicholas bonham-carter

Generally, you are better off with the make of boiler, which is distributed locally, by a dealer, who stocks parts.
A true steam professional will follow the manufacturer's instructions at a minimum.
He will also measure all the radiators in the house, in order to size the boiler. He will also show you how to clean the boiler after the work is done (see skimming). This takes many hours, and is absolutely neccessary, as no chemical additives can substitute.
Buying the steam books here in the shop will bring you up to speed on your knowledge of steam heating.--NBC

Fred

If you haven't already drawn your own conclusions from the responses here, the true answer is, for all practical purposes, virtually all the cast iron, atmospheric boilers on the market today are about the same in terms of quality, warranty and servicability. They are fairly simple but do require maintainence. Installation is key as is ensuring minimal fresh water is added.

frank11k

I have to say, I have a better idea of some the issues that I have to be aware of. I really appreciate all of the helpful comments. As most everyone has pointed out, the brand of boiler isn't the first issue that I need to think about. That being said, has anyone familiar with Burnham gas fired steam boilers?

ChrisJ

Pretty much everyone knowns Burnham.

I'd say Burnham and Weil-McLain the two most popular brands by far. But all of them will do fine.

To be extra safe I recommend posting what your guy wants to do here BEFORE he does it. This way everyone can say if it's ok or not and it will make everyone's lives much easier.

Fred

frank11k said:

I have to say, I have a better idea of some the issues that I have to be aware of. I really appreciate all of the helpful comments. As most everyone has pointed out, the brand of boiler isn't the first issue that I need to think about. That being said, has anyone familiar with Burnham gas fired steam boilers?

I have a Burnham Steam boiler (Series 4B, 866 sq. ft. EDR.) 32 years old and still (knock on wood) going strong. Gas fired. I think they make a very good boiler. If you fire with oil, most of the guys on this site swear by the Burnham Megasteam but are disappointed that Burnham still hasn't certified it for natural gas.

New Hampshire DIYer

I faced the same question recently--I had to replace a 19 year-old Weil McLain atmospheric natural gas boiler that was leaking. I chose a SlantFin Intrepid of the appropriate size (TR-40). When you do your research these boilers appear to be sold only as oil-fired units, but folks on this site pointed out that they are indeed certified for NG. They are also one of the only designs to use a power-burner which I understand is modestly more efficient than an atmospheric design. I figured that if I were making a 20-30 year decision, I should opt for the most efficient reputable boiler out there. As it so happened, my local supply house had recently starting distributing SlantFin boilers, which is a huge deal to installers. Being able to get parts and support is very important.
The unit was installed around Thanksgiving and so far it's been great.

j a_2

frank11k said:

Well, that helps me think of some more things to consider about getting the new boiler in. I have some confidence in the professional I'm having install the boiler. I think my local water's pretty good. I know my radiators leak a little steam and I guess I'd better mention that to the contractor. I still have to figure out which boiler to go with though.

Hello, He should of asked you of any know or suspected issues, in the system...

vaporvac

I can't answer to reliability, but the main differences between boilers seems to be "wet-based" vs. "atmospheric", with the former being more efficient and longer-lived. When I inquired on this site a few years ago, the general consensus from the pros was to go with a wet-based boiler. I chose the Slantfin Intrepid TR50 with a Reillo G400 gas conversion burner.
SF's technical department is outstanding and will answer any question even those of a homeowner.One has to specify gas to get the correct install documents via pdf. They approved all my schematics and made useful suggestions.

The main difference with the WB boilers is the burner is in the middle of the boiler surrounded by water... hence wet-based. This cuts down on jacket losses and loss through the bottom. It also helps efficiency when there's debris collecting in the bottom of the boiler as it heats the water directly. They are smaller, but heavier so the castings are thicker. Mine was super well insulated. There is less water to heat, so more efficient that way as well. I didn't need any sort of condensate tank, even so.
The main issue is finding someone who knows how to use a combustion analyzer and this is essential for these boilers. Any additional cost is negligible. The burners and boilers are about the same $. (Some installer are unaware these can easily be used for residential installs, as in the past they were mainly for commercial use.)

That said, some go with atmospheric, due to weight constraints while moving down stairs, especially with HO who've essentially installed their own. they felt it would be simpler. The piping needs to be correct, regardless.
My house is large, and I'm in it for the long haul, so every % of efficiency was important to me. I love these TR50s, but the install IS the important factor. C

frank11k

You guys keep expanding my education! I really appreciate all of the comments. I'm still getting things sorted out for the specific boiler and the installation, but I have a better idea what to ask about.

Some of the posts have mentioned that I should make sure the system (as a whole) is leak free. My radiators are fairly old and have hissed a little steam for years. I always thought it was normal for steam heat. Should I be concerned about a little steam loss at the radiators?

Abracadabra

frank11k said:

Should I be concerned about a little steam loss at the radiators?

If something is leaking it should be fixed... radiators shouldn't leak steam (or water). Check shutoff valve packing, ensure spud nut is tight, and make sure the vent shuts when steam hits it. Rarely a radiator will leak between sections.

Fred

Is that hissing at the radiator vent? If so, the system pressure should be checked and lowered if need be, the radiator vents may need to be cleaned so thay close properly or replaced if they won't close. If the hissing is from the supply valve or where the valve connects to the radiator, that needs to be fixed, tighten the union to the radiator spud and/or repack the valve stem. If the hissing is anywhere else on the radiator, the radiaator needs to be repaired or replaced.

frank11k

I think I'd better get one of the books after I get my immediate problems dealt with. I should probably check each radiator. One of them doesn't seem to shut off and that particular radiator puts a little more heat into the room it's in than I would like. I think that will be a summer project (assuming summer hasn't been cancelled this year :-) )

Gordo

frank11k said:

You guys keep expanding my education! I really appreciate all of the comments. I'm still getting things sorted out for the specific boiler and the installation, but I have a better idea what to ask about.

Some of the posts have mentioned that I should make sure the system (as a whole) is leak free. My radiators are fairly old and have hissed a little steam for years. I always thought it was normal for steam heat. Should I be concerned about a little steam loss at the radiators?

"Leaking vents kill boilers!" As others on this site have said, the best water treatment is a tight system. Water that leaves the system as steam is seldom counted as a problem because the effect - a rotted-out boiler - only happens years later.

Replace all leaking vents. Tighten packing nuts. Check all union nuts. Get ALL that water back to the boiler and your boiler will repay your diligence by its increased longevity.

New Hampshire DIYer

As a first step toward making my radiator vents work properly I removed them all during the summer and soaked them in vinegar to remove all the calcium deposits and other crud. I replaced a few that were particularly bad--an easy fix. I use Vent Rite vents and a few Gortons. Vent Rites are the only ones typically sold around here and I prefer them because they are adjustable. I also made certain that all my radiators sloped slightly back toward the inlet pipe. Many of mine had settled over the years (in the wrong direction) and there was often some clanging and banging as the radiators warmed up at the start of a heating cycle.

frank11k

Well, with all of the comments on this thread in mind, I'm considering my contractors advice to go with a PIN6SNI-HE2 Independence series Burnham boiler. In researching this model of boiler, I've discovered that it has been discontinued. Does anyone have any experience with this model?

Fred

Did he do an EDR survey? Does this boiler match the required EDR? Is he recommending this particular Burnham because he happens to have one on hand that he is trying to unload? Do you know why Burnham has discontinued this model? Does it have a bad track record? Have you looked at any consumer feedback for this particular model?
I'd be a little concerned about buying a discontinued boiler that will hopefully service your home for many years to come. If you're paying for new, get a current model.

ChrisJ

I don't like the sound of it.
I wouldn't care that it's discontinued, but I would care if it's the wrong size.

Mark N

That is the part number for a Burnham Independence boiler. Since when have they been discontinued? I've had an IN-4 for 6 years with no problems.

Steamhead

The Independence is still shown on Burnham's site, maybe they changed the model numbers?

STEAM DOCTOR

In the event that you go with the IN6,be very careful NOT to follow manufactures recommendations. The manufacturer allows for a single 2" riser from the boiler and a 2" header. If I remember correctly, this with give you steam velocity of aprox 50 feet per second. Insist on two 2" risers and and a 3"header.

Mark N

It looks like maybe it has been replaced by the PIN6SNI-ME2. Don't know the difference.

ChrisJ

STEAM DOCTOR said:

In the event that you go with the IN6,be very careful NOT to follow manufactures recommendations. The manufacturer allows for a single 2" riser from the boiler and a 2" header. If I remember correctly, this with give you steam velocity of aprox 50 feet per second. Insist on two 2" risers and and a 3"header.

Or feel free to upgrade to two 2" risers into a 4" drop header.

The sky is the limit, just don't go smaller than two 2" risers into a 3" header.

KC_Jones

And above all else and it's been said before, make sure the installer does an EDR calculation of all the rads in your house so the boiler is sized correctly. Honestly if it was me I would do my own calculation to make sure the boiler is properly sized. Has your installer done this? An oversized boiler is something you will pay for, for the life of the boiler you want it right the first time.

Fred

Once again, I'm going to restate my concern (in addition to the sizing) make sure you understand why this model was discontinued and replaced with another model #. If it was to correct a flawed design, stay away from it. If it was to add features/functionality, understand what those changes are and what value they provide. If you're getting a "discontinued" price for this boiler and it is sized right and their are no design issues, then just decide if the value add on the new model is worth the additional cost (if any).

RobG

If he has recommended a boiler and not yet done an EDR count you need to find another contractor.

frank11k

At this point, I'm hoping to gather enough information to make sure the installation turns out OK. I live in a somewhat rural area, and as several people have pointed out, steam heating is not as common as it once was. I have limited choices in selecting a contractor, but the heating contractor who has been working on this is generally capable and trustworthy. He doesn't profess to be an expert in steam heat, but he has installed systems in the past. I'm trying to become more educated, because I will have to be responsible for the decisions that are made and I will need to learn to properly maintain the system I end up with. (I didn't plan on getting the book for another month or two, I may need to order it sooner.) That being said, as a result of my questions, he has followed up with the manufacturer to stay on track. He has revised his proposal after re-checking the number and size of the radiators. He is still suggesting a Burnham, but he thinks the PIN5SNI-ME2 would be a more suitable choice. The IN6 that he had first wanted to go with was 175,000 btu's, and that would be equivalent to the boiler that is being replaced. The IN5 is only 140,000 btu's, but he and the manufacturer's rep seem to think would be sufficient.

The question in my mind is whether I should go with the lower btu boiler. The 175,000 btu unit that was in my home did a great job for quite a few years and my gas bills haven't been too bad. If I go with a lower btu boiler, I would expect it to be adequate while it's new, but wouldn't a boiler's efficiency decline with age? My gut tells me to stick with the larger boiler. Other than some of the heat going into my basement instead of all going to the upstairs, is there really any reason not to go with a boiler that exceeds the need (a little) in terms of btu's?

BobC

In general you want to match the installed EDR to the boiler st ft of steam rating. If the boiler is too big it short cycles and operates less efficiently, if it's too small it may not heat the house on really cold days. Remember the boiler sq ft of steam has a 33% pickup factor for piping so the boiler actually produces more steam than the label claims. The steam piping in the cellar all should be insulated with 1" steam pipe insulation.

A gas boilers ability to heat the house does not change with age unless you have bad combustion or serious water quality issues.

If your more comfortable with a larger boiler and don't mind the fact it is less efficient that is your call.

Bob

Fred

Do you know what he calculated the Radiator EDR to be (in total)? To really tell which boiler is right, we need to compare the EDR total to the SQ. Ft. of steam output of the boiler or the Net BTU output to the Radiator EDR, converted to BTU's.
In general, most existing boilers are over-sized so i'm not at all surprised that the recommendation for the new one is a bit smaller.
If properly maintained, the new boiler isn't going to decline in effeciency or output over the years, as it ages.
The most important reasons to go with the right size boiler are:
1. It will keep you more comfortable, with minimal temp swings
2. It will cost less to run (fuel costs) which add up over its life
3. It will be much less likely to short cycle during very cold weather and reduce some wear on the gas valve and control/safety devices.
See if you can get the total Radiator EDR and let's look at which sie you should have. It is quite possible the 140K unit still has some fudge in it, in addition to the 33% that is already built into the boiler for overhead to heat the header, mains and Radiator run-outs (which possibly also has some extra capacity in that overhead that the boiler will use for heating the radiators.
The bottom line is a bigger boiler isn't going to produce any more heat than your radiators can condense and convert to heat. Anything over the radiator capacity is wasted fuel.

frank11k

to calculate the total radiator EDR myself, do I need anything more the the number and cubic size of the radiators?

Fred

frank11k said:

to calculate the total radiator EDR myself, do I need anything more the the number and cubic size of the radiators?

If you give us the heigth of the radiator, from the floor to the top, the number of columns or tubes in each radiator (Tell us if they are columns or tubes and the number, from front to back) and the number of sections in the radiator (from side to side), we can tell you the Sq. Ft. of EDR either by total radiator sie or by section X the number of sections.
Or you can go here and see examples and how to calculate:
http://columbiaheating.com/page_images/Sizing Cast Iron Radiator Heating Capacity Guide.pdf

frank11k

All of my radiator sections have three columns. 1 26"X14 sections, 2 26"X17 sections, 1 38"X 6 section, 1 38"X8 section, and 1 38"X9 section. If I calculated correctly, that would be 48 sections X 3.75 sq ft EDR and 23 sections X 5.0 sq ft EDR for a total of 295 sq ft EDR. With the factor for steam heat of 240, I'm coming up with a total required btu output of 70,800. Of course the boilers are rated by btu input, but it seems like I've still got a margin of error with the smaller boiler. The 140,000 btu unit lists a net btu rating of 86,000, which I'm guessing is equivalent to output. Am I looking at this correctly?

RobG

Can you post some pics of your radiators so we can determine the type?

Fred

You are looking at it correctly. I think the 86K Boiler is about 22% over-sized. You need to step the boiler down to the next lower size, maybe even 2 sizes down. The goal is to have the boiler net Sq. Ft. of steam matcch the total 295 EDR that you calculated. The boiler plate will provide both the Net BTU's and the Sq. Ft. of Steam and does not include what the manufacturer has already built into the boiler for a Pick-up factor (33% more than the Net output on the plate, which is to cover maintaini9ng the heat on the Header, Mains and radiator run-outs so that steam can get to the radiators).