Plumber Recommendation

Paul48

I don't know what type of mechanic he was. He went to one of the best schools in the country, for that, supposedly. I see from your ad, here on HH, that you now specialize in heating only?

j a_2

Yup since 1979

Robert O'Connor_12

Hi Jimbo!
Did you get some help yet?

icesailor

Now, you get DCI (Direct Cylinder Injection) instead of direct port injection and between the valve overlap, crankcase ventilation and Exhaust Gas Recirculation, with no fuel mixed with the incoming air, the intake valve stems are coating with carbon and you have to have the heads pulled at some point and the valve stems cleaned. So much so that it chokes off the air supply, and carbon chunks will damage the Cat Converter.

Progress.

Mark Eatherton

Just because one knows how to solder water pipes does not give one the automatic ability to understand Hydronics, any more than having the ability to install a battery gives one the knowledge of how to install electrical systems. I know of a handful of great Hydronics contractors who don't carry any licensure at all.

Bottom line, the consumer MUST do their due diligence to make sure that the person they hire is capable of performing the work with which they are being tasked. Being a good plumber is a great start, but there is much more to Hydronics than just putting piping systems together.

Lord knows there is no shortage of hydronic work out there to be done, I'd just have to ask those people who are making the cross over from plumbing to Hydronics to study it as thoroughly as possible before diving in with both feet. It's not rocket science, it's harder than that... The ONLY thing it has in common with plumbing is the use of water and pipes.

The RPA is a great way to bring yourself up to speed with Hydronics and radiant, and avoid the expensive pitfalls associated with making the transition from plumbing to Hydronics. Check out our class offerings at HeatSpring.com, RPA U campus.

https://www.heatspring.com/partners/radiant-professionals-alliance

ME

j a_2

My postings are,once again based on my location...to install a gas heating boiler,by law you must be a lic plumber....So up here why anyone would want to work strictly on hydronics and not,by law be able to remove and install the appliance that heats the system is beyond me...The laws are in place to protect the owner and installer...Fact is you can't even advertise without a lic. number attached..as well as proper marking on you vehicle... FYI I am referring to strictly residential and light commercial work. I do know there are statements in Rinnai manuals that say this procedure must be accomplished by a lic and trained tech....It does appear most if not all do not agree with me in this site...I guess we are just different up here.... Not ment in anyway to belittle anyone, but one can wake up tomorrow and decide they want to work on hydronics...no lic. No testing no apprintiace time. No permits required. Scarry..... To be a plumber it takes 5 years apprintiace time,school time,lic testing... We do both gas and plumbing up here....just wanted all to know why I think as I do...I have handed my business off to a young man whom I taught at the localtech/high school a few years back...who is extreamy bright.....and dedicated Besides being a former Marine...My teaching job was called half time,it was good because I could run my own one man shop,me, in the afternoon ,nights and weekends.....I loved it... SO I do get upset when people paint everyone with the same brush....There are I am told and in many cases whitnested it some very poor installers in my area..Some plumbers some oil companies some moonlighters....and God forbid homeowners.....

icesailor

""" When the consumer knows as much about hydronics and boiler installations as you do, only then will he be in a position of vetting various plumbing and heating contractors. ""

All well and good. Because of the Youse Tubes, some potential customers think they know more about heating than the people actually doing the installs. And they have all been convinced that the only ones out there who aren't going to bend them over, are members of Angie's List.

j a_2

Then the installer is a thief….The Red Horse Eng. Squadron motto EITHER LEAD,FOLLOW, OR GET OUT OF THE WAY...

j a_2

A very close friend does litigation up here as a Master plumber and excellent inspector…for a law firm…It can get real ugly…out here….You best know what your doing….Like I said before if Harry the home owner installs his own gas appliance without a permit and God forbid something happen, he has no insurance….Then if he sells the house and something is without permit, oh boy again….Even worse he sells the house and its discovered later that he did the install himself because some nice young family got sick…Thats not good …Plumbers help protect the heath of our nation…We do not as suggested just solder pipes…..In general….in Massachusetts….Really don’t anything about other parts of our countrys rules, hard enough keeping up on our own LAWS…Up here anything just about above replacing a washer on a faucet requires a permit…And H/D is loaded with the do it yourself plumbers….3 people were found dead only 2 min away, from home depot….Owners in jail, and one was a blind partner….

icesailor

Read this:

http://info.libraries.vermont.gov/supct/163/op93-010.txt

IMO, the homeowner who built the home didn't install the boiler or the snow melt system. When a problem was discovered, he told the installer to fix it. The installer and others didn't understand the problem so they told the owner it was fixed. He later sold the property. People died. The former owner went to jail for something that he as a non professional didn't understand, and the Professionals that should have known, denied any responsibility in the matter. But it fell upon the original owner who didn't disclose a defect that he thought was fixed.

More of how I developed my understanding of "Chimney Effect" draft problems.

As tough as Vermont is, no regulations were changed to protect consumers. Maybe CO monitors. That would saved them all.

SWEI

Reading that opinion, it appears the guy cheaped himself right into the big house. Perhaps some will take heed. I suspect not enough.

My only other comment is that I have see so many people suffer as a result of incompetent or negligent home inspections and never a smudge on the perpetrator of said "inspection." I have one home inspector I count as a friend. She owns a CO tester and uses it regularly.

If I were an insurance company, I would certainly make that a requirement for someone's policy. Between the seller, the buyer, their agent(s), and the inspector, there's an awful lot of insurance being bought.

j a_2

Hatterasguy said:

icesailor said:

Read this:

http://info.libraries.vermont.gov/supct/163/op93-010.txt

IMO, the homeowner who built the home didn't install the boiler or the snow melt system. When a problem was discovered, he told the installer to fix it. The installer and others didn't understand the problem so they told the owner it was fixed. He later sold the property. People died. The former owner went to jail for something that he as a non professional didn't understand, and the Professionals that should have known, denied any responsibility in the matter. But it fell upon the original owner who didn't disclose a defect that he thought was fixed.

IMO, the owner of the property deserves to go to jail. He was told by C&L plumbing and heating and Vermont Gas Company that that his heater was not functioning properly and that it should be repaired. When the other occupant went to the hospital for the first time, it was suggested to the defendant that carbon monoxide was involved.

If you read your posting, you would see that the professionals absolutely did know the unit was not operating properly and informed him of same.

The defendant ignored all of this information and never got the heater repaired and never disclosed the problems with the heater to the potential buyer.

That's criminal and he deserves everything that he got.

Could not agree more Mr. Hattersguy ….Roof and deck colapses,all over the place up here in the Boston area…Some even took out plumbing and gas lines….Lawyers and public adjusters lining up all over the place…Icicles falling off taking out sidewall vents no matter how high above the snow line…PERMIT NUMBER PLEASE...

icesailor

You're the expert.

I followed this case when it was in Professional Journals and no one NOT ONE FREAKING ONE knew the cause. Not the defense attorneys, or the idiots that couldn't figure it out. I even tried to contact the person or lawyers before it got to trial. I knew immediately what happened.

So, I'll educate you.

The first owner would build a "spec" house to live in, When he built the next one, he sold the first when he moved in to the next one. The house was on a hill next to a road. The driveway went UP the hill so when it snowed (This is Vermont), you couldn't get up the hill. Someone told him about Snow Melt. So, he hired someone to come in and install a snowmelt system in his driveway. The house was a cellar with a 2 car garage under it where the garage was at ground level, on the side of a hill. You could drive into the garage from the driveway and get into the house from stairs in the cellar. They built a "Wart" on the back of the garage into the side of the hill, with access through the garage. They vented a LP gas boiler through the roof. It had a standard gas boiler draft hood. There was never any discussion in the case of a spillover switch.

The boiler was connected to a switch. When you wanted to melt the snow on the driveway, you closed the switch, the boiler started,, the pump started, and the snow would melt once the water got hot. It would run for hours and hours. It ran for a year maybe. Sometimes (as I remember) it "didn't run right".

The house had no central heat other than a wood stove where, because its Vermont, and the guy built spec houses, he probably had a never ending supply of wood. So he burned wood. He had a live in girlfriend. One morning, he went off to work and it had snowed the night before. It was cold. He fired up the wood stove with a fresh load of seasoned oak, fired off the snow melt, and left for work. The girl friend awoke a few hours later, The wood stove was barely going, the house was cold, and she didn't feel well. She called said BF and she told said BF that it was almost like there was a FOG in the house. The door from the cellar into the house was open. The BF remembered that he had left the Snow Melt boiler on and he told her to shut it off because the driveway was clear. After she shut off the snow melt boiler, things improved. The BF/owner called his friendly heating specialists who hadn't a clue what the problem was. So the Heat Guy called the LP guys. Between many brains, they decided that the guy was making it up.

I forgot to mention earlier that there was a was a finished wall between where he parked the car with a door into the other side which he used as a workshop, The door between was left open.

Back to the story. The many brains working together could see no reason for the gas boiler to not be working properly. After all, it was a short distance and right through the roof. The brains insisted to the owner that all was well. Until it happened again in the same scenario. He called The Brains again, who were still not able to find any fault and absolutely insisted it was OK. That the owner needed to "Get It Fixed". The owner told the Brains that he didn't care what, he wanted it fixed and no if's, and's or But's about it. After a few days of doing who knows what, the brain trust declared it all fixed. I mean, after all, didn't he call the "Plumber" to come and fix whatever was wrong?

Later, people died. People like you and I were hired to fix the problem a lack of understanding, and not having the time to pay attention and try to create the circumstances that caused the incident. Remember, this was back in the day when you couldn't even buy a CO detector.

Someone once said at a seminar I attended:

With oil:

First you smell it, then you see it, then you die.

With gas:

First you die, you don't see it or smell it.

Why I bought a personal CO detector. You never know what you can't see or smell will kill you. Do you honestly think that anyone who went there on a service call had a clue about CO and how it can happen? Have you ever seen a serious potentially bad thing? Like I once did?

I went to a call, on a garage apartment with the boiler and indirect under the eves. To fix a leak on the Indirect that was putting water in the Safe Pan. There were two big wooden louvers in the back wall for make up air. The boiler vented straight through the roof. There was a big mushroom capped power fan ventilator in the roof, next to the exhaust, automatically off a thermostat. If the room got too hot, the fan came on and sucked the hot air out. While fixing the water leak, I noticed that both the Roll Out and the Spillover Switches were bypassed and not operational in the control of the boiler. As I worked at what I was doing, I thought it odd that they were disconnected. Then, it occurred to me why it was done, When the fan came on, the fan got its make up air down the boiler flue. If the boiler was running for heat or hot water, it had to come down the exhaust flue. The LP gas was serviced by a reputable LPG service provider. Their service personnel had disconnected the safety's as a remedy to the boiler tripping out. Because I was the last one there, if anything happened, I could have been held responsible.

Never walk away from something dangerous like you are ignoring it.

That man went to jail because someone he hired to do a job didn't do it. You honestly think any of those others will claim responsibility for not knowing they were stupid and not thorough? I told the caretaker that it needed to be fixed, why, and that I had shut it down. I was never called again. The vents in the wall for the make up air were deadheaded behind the wall with no opening to the outside. And louvered doors from the boiler space into the living space.

I always felt bad for that guy. Time in his life wasted in jail because someone couldn't take the next step.

ME is an authority on these cases. As an expert witness.

Every time I went to a job with a gas boiler, I instinctively check for disconnected spill and roll out switches, When I've found them, its always because something needed attention.

j a_2

Ice, I am trying to read thru your post....But somehow got lost half way thru..In a few words what are u trying to say?

icesailor

If you see something deadly dangerous, and you worked around it, and it is in the sphere of your work, you better cover your ****.

j a_2

I do now all the time at home….With my blanket at nite LOL

Jimbo_5

Bob, thanks for offering to help, I truly appreciate it (Mr O'Connor). Although it's only been 2 years since we worked together doing NYCs Sandy Relief (can it really be 2 years already) it seemed like only yesterday when talking last night. I've often spoken of that old drop-head steam boiler you did for that old fella. I knew I picked the right man for the job, especially after seeing the finished product. Being the Fitter shop steward, having plumbers from every Local in the State of NJ working for me as "Steamfitters" and trying to have everyone get along, well, was a new experience for me. It was truly a pleasure having you with us. Thanks again for you offer, Bob, I'll let you know what she finally decides to do with this Sea Side mess, and if the insurance company pays or if she has to go after the installer. Talk to you soon. Semper Fi brother.

j a_2

I like that.

Mark Eatherton

Hatteras guy said

"When the consumer knows as much about hydronics and boiler installations as you do, only then will he be in a position of vetting various plumbing and heating contractors.

Without the above qualifications, NO CONSUMER can ever be successful at that task.

The required knowledge to vet a contractor is far beyond the capabilities of the average homeowner.

The only solution, as I see it, is to have the prospective contractor submit photos of previous installations and have the homeowner post them on the Wall. NOW you have a great opportunity to vet the prospective contractor. Folks like yourself can take one look at a photo and immediately determine "qualified" or "not qualified".

Any other solution won't be successful."

I disagree.

The vetting of an HVAC/hydronics contractor is really no different than any other vetting process, regardless of the tasks to be performed. Ask for a minimum of 3 satisfied consumers, and call each and every one of them and ask them simple questions, like "Has your system experienced any problems? If yes, how did the service company respond? Has the issue been resolved? Mind if I come by and take a look at the quality of their work? Have you been comfortable when the weather gets real cold outside?

And then DO (perform site visit) IT. We are all consumers here. I am not an expert in many areas, so I have to do due diligence, just like everyone else does.

If a person does their due diligence, then there's really not a lot more they can do to protect themselves, other than retaining a large chunk of the monies due to the contractor, which if unresolved can turn into an unwanted property lien.

A person has to apply common sense, which isn't very common any more...

ME

wogpa67

Can;t wait to see the final product when you are done fixing that abomination( I had a shorter word. Didn't want to offend) of implied work.

Jimbo_5

Oh, here is a photo of the intake/exhaust connection that is attached to her WM 97+. Whatdaya think? This is not a joke, I'm serious, this is how it was installed.

wogpa67

Only further proves my statement with the pic of the termination.
So where is the combustion air coming from?

Jimbo_5

Those 4 tiny drill holes, that's it. As stated from the onset, the unit went in 2 years ago this month and was shutting down unexpectedly right from the beginning.

wogpa67

Sorry wrong thread.
Is that really siliconed all the way around the outside of the termination?

Jimbo_5

Yes sir re Bob.

wogpa67

Well that doesn't work to well!

Rich_49

Yes it is , 4 tiny 1/4" holes drilled through the intake side right on the same plane as the exhaust . Think it equals 3" pipe ?
No air elimination whatsoever . no secondary pump at all . heated water was never leaving boiler as factory installed circ would suck it right back in . Pre plumbed Primary / secondary and this guy could not be bothered with reading . No outdoor sensor attached . Wish I knew what boiler was there prior , possibly then some of the piping below would make sense .
This boiler never worked , could not have .

Rich_49

Yes it is , 4 tiny 1/4" holes drilled through the intake side right on the same plane as the exhaust . Think it equals 3" pipe ?
No air elimination whatsoever . no secondary pump at all . heated water was never leaving boiler as factory installed circ would suck it right back in . Pre plumbed Primary / secondary and this guy could not be bothered with reading . No outdoor sensor attached . Wish I knew what boiler was there prior , possibly then some of the piping below would make sense .
This boiler never worked , could not have .

wogpa67

That control stores a ton of faults. I'm sure they are all hi limit and flue temp trips.

Jimbo_5

Hey Rich, do you ever chilax and rest? I don't think so. Throw them 2 dogs a couple a bonz.

icesailor

Jimbo said:

Oh, here is a photo of the intake/exhaust connection that is attached to her WM 97+. Whatdaya think? This is not a joke, I'm serious, this is how it was installed.

I fixed one of those that had the spacers so it could suck from behind. Only problem was that the 3" PVC intake was jambed into the back side of the termination. Only the fact that the pipe wasn't cut off square, and could suck some air in, did it allow it to run for 5 years. I cut the pipe back and squared it up. It became a wonderful thing.

Jimbo_5

Spoke with Weil McLain rep today who solidly confirmed the problem with the intake termination. He also confirmed the need for a separate circ for the secondary piping, as well as it being a total waste using this particular boiler without the ODR. And she paid good money for this lisenced professional to install this frozen mess, not even 2 years ago. Oh, and that extra $200 + change for replacing the existing purge valves only months after the original install. Gives the trades a bad name.

Mark Eatherton

http://www.deltafaucet.com/inspiredliving/infographic/12-things-ask-contractor-saying-youre-hired

Here's a list of good questions for consumers to start with. I realize as Hatterasguy pointed out, that consumers are not expected to be experts in this region, but it is quite obvious, looking at the straightness of the pipes, cleanliness of the installation whether or not the tradesman is a professional. And yes, straight and level pipes are not a guarantee, but an indicator of their abilities and intentions.

A hack is a hack is a hack, and no quantity of hand held levels will ever make that any different.

Not doing full due diligence is the equivalent of malpractice on the consumers part. An unwise option...

ME

Rich_49

Jim ,

Please give me a shout . cannot seem to find your e mail or phone number .