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Lack of variety in residential ECM circulators is very poor

BigRob
BigRob Member Posts: 322
With all the pump manufactures talking up their eco credentials, I find it unacceptable there are no reasonably priced ECM circulators for DHW and 0-10V controlled applications. ECM technology should have been standard years ago. Come on Taco and Grundfos! It's so easy to add a 0-10V input to the bee and alpha. Pretty bad, guys!

Comments

  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    Aren't there a few reasonably priced ECM circs out there... but yeah, 0-10 V input ones are pretty expensive (probably never see the ROI in a residential app).

    Why couldn't you use an alpha or bee for DWH?
    wyo
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Don't forget the fact that they all have roughly the same curve (008-ish.) We need something 006-ish.
    bmwpowere36m3
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    @SWEI

    At full speed right? I thought they go down to 006 equivalent.
  • BigRob
    BigRob Member Posts: 322
    edited February 2015

    Aren't there a few reasonably priced ECM circs out there... but yeah, 0-10 V input ones are pretty expensive (probably never see the ROI in a residential app).

    Why couldn't you use an alpha or bee for DWH?

    Maybe I could, but I think some of the non-fire tube heat exchangers out there have a decent pressure drop. I guess you could double up the pumps, but that seems wasteful, too. Generally, the manufacturers are specifying some beefy pumps for heating and DHW. Some are 32ft/32gal, which I can't find outside of a Magna or some commercial big money ECM pump. I could really use a 32ft/32gal proportional pressure ECM pump to serve 12 heating zones. I could also use an ECM pump for DHW production and need about 20gpm for that. The alpha tops out at 20gpm with very low head and well outside its efficiency zone. These types of pumps would save me good money since they run most all the time.

    It would be really easy to add a 0-10V input to a bee or alpha for boiler flow control of a fire tube (goal of lowering power use), or create a mode in the bee with delta T control with an adjustable low flow threshold for boilers without boiler pump control. The problem is, this creates a product placement issue for them since they sell controls to do that kind of stuff. They better lead before somebody from Silicon Valley disrupts their business model and they get behind the 8 ball. It's not like the electronics to do this stuff is rocket science. A $30 dollar Android smartphone has exponentially more horsepower. Shoot, a 10 dollar Arduino is essentially the control in a Lochinvar and there is tons of open source PID control code on the internet. It's only a matter of time - better get ahead of the curve.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    edited February 2015

    At full speed right? I thought they go down to 006 equivalent.

    Correct, at full speed. If you're running a variable speed pump at its minimum speed all the time, it's no longer a variable speed pump.
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    edited February 2015
    SWEI said:

    At full speed right? I thought they go down to 006 equivalent.

    Correct, at full speed. If you're running a variable speed pump at its minimum speed all the time, it's no longer a variable speed pump.
    So an 006 pump curve that can throttle down... I can only imagine the lack of a pump such as that is the demand or lack thereof. Seems 007s (or similar) are widely used and maybe that's simply a fact of what has been available for years. If a pump can vary between 006-008 it'll cover a huge portion of the "market" (in residential hydronic apps).

    I don't know how many in the industry are consciously designing hydronic systems with minimal pumping in mind. I guess it’s the same when you mention 3/8" PEX for supplying radiators... some people baulk at the idea.

    Maybe @Steve Thompson (Taco) can shed some light
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    @BigRob

    I thought you said residential... 32 GPM, that's a lot of BTUs. Is that a multi-family unit? 1 pump, so I assume 1 zone?

    32 GPM and 32ft of head... that's like a Taco 133 (over $1.5k). I believe the Taco VR15 has all those features (constant P, ECM, digital input) and costs the same as the 133.
  • wogpa67
    wogpa67 Member Posts: 238
    I was at a Grundfos seminar 5-6 years ago and they said they were working on it then. Must not be feasible for the bean counters.
  • ced48
    ced48 Member Posts: 469
    edited February 2015
    I'm using a Viridian 1816 for indirect DHW, and it is fantastic. It let me fool with the speed, so I was able to fine tune what was an air prone loop because of over pumping, into an absolutely quiet one. The root of this over pumping was miss information on head pressure provided by HTP. I need very little pump at all, and this Taco let me work thru this without having to try a bunch of different pumps. As far as cost, most New England states are giving a $100 rebate, so the pumps can be had here for about the price of a 007-
    Bob Bona_4BigRob
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    edited February 2015
    The 007 (and 005 ) are flat curve pumps, making them somewhat less suited to variable speed control. Look at these and you can see how nicely the 006 curve fits under the 008.

    We would spec an ECM circ of this size not only for 50+% of our residential systems, but also for DHW recirc applications -- especially if it had the features of the VT2218 (and a nonferrous volute option.) If they added 0-10V inputs, it would end up in a lot of commercial zone apps and a lot of boilers around here.
    BigRob
  • BigRob
    BigRob Member Posts: 322

    @BigRob

    I thought you said residential... 32 GPM, that's a lot of BTUs. Is that a multi-family unit? 1 pump, so I assume 1 zone?

    32 GPM and 32ft of head... that's like a Taco 133 (over $1.5k). I believe the Taco VR15 has all those features (constant P, ECM, digital input) and costs the same as the 133.

    Yes, 12 unit multifamily. Sorry, unclear on my residential/commercial boundaries. Each unit has one zone. We use a Taco 0011 right now. Yeah, 1.5k is absurd. Ha. A Taco 0011 curve with constant P should not cost more than $400.
  • BigRob
    BigRob Member Posts: 322
    ced48 said:

    I'm using a Viridian 1816 for indirect DHW, and it is fantastic. It let me fool with the speed, so I was able to fine tune what was an air prone loop because of over pumping, into an absolutely quiet one. The root of this over pumping was miss information on head pressure provided by HTP. I need very little pump at all, and this Taco let me work thru this without having to try a bunch of different pumps. As far as cost, most New England states are giving a $100 rebate, so the pumps can be had here for about the price of a 007-

    The 1816 is a nice looking pump. If a 0011 class pump comes out I'd be very interested as it would save me real money.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Look at the Grundfos MAGNA3 curves. 32-60 matches the 0011 in GPM and the 32-100 matches it in head. I'll bet one of those would work, and they have a boatload of control logic options.
  • BigRob
    BigRob Member Posts: 322
    SWEI said:

    Look at the Grundfos MAGNA3 curves. 32-60 matches the 0011 in GPM and the 32-100 matches it in head. I'll bet one of those would work, and they have a boatload of control logic options.

    I have my eye on that bad boy! ...can't find any deals, and it's still pretty pricey so the ROI is borderline. At least the Magna3 is 120V now in these sizes. I saw someplace it was discontinued, but that doesn't seem right. It's a sweet pump, for sure.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    There was a running change to the MAGNA3 last year that added ΔT control using an external sensor. Maybe they changed SKU's at the time?
    BigRobRich_49
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    Those smaller ECM pumps can be had around here for ~ $100 after state rebate. So putting a few in parallel could work... for minimal $$
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Reality check:

    If you want 6 ECM pumps delivering 32GPM@32' head on a job, by the time the job is priced out, they'll be going Hydro-Air.

    Another lock up and crash.

    Comcast slows down so that you have to pause between keystrokes to wait for the typed letter to appear. Especially noted in the later AM.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited February 2015

    bmwpowere36m3 et all... I've been watching this post with great interest (no kidding).

    Being this is a public forum we can't say what we're working on (as much as I want to) but if you think the VR 1816 and VT 2218 are our last entries into the ECM world...

    I can assure all of you there are a lot of us at Taco that monitor "The Wall". Keep telling us what you need - we're listening.


    Steve I only wish the boiler manufactors would make their presence known here like you do. I know they lurk, and listen, but it's nice to actually "know" that its happening. A little interaction like yourself would be nice also. Lord knows there is plenty of room for that here.

    Thanks again Steve, and taco for listening, and fulfilling.
    bmwpowere36m3
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited February 2015

    Those smaller ECM pumps can be had around here for ~ $100 after state rebate. So putting a few in parallel could work... for minimal $$


    Why? That would be counterproductive in hardware cost, labor cost, and operating cost. May as well go one circ conventional.

    Let's use our head in line with what is presently available.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    Kurt,
    That was quite an enlightening Hydronixtalk wouldn't you say . Lotsa people scratching their heads now that knew it all a very short time ago .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    I got tied up on an inspection and missed the last one. I'll catch up this weekend.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    Thats a shame . The information stated by Matt was very gratifying . Right down to how adding those sensors and using Delta T strategy stopped short cycling dead in their example .Don't know if it has been archived yet , hope so .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    Gordy said:

    Those smaller ECM pumps can be had around here for ~ $100 after state rebate. So putting a few in parallel could work... for minimal $$


    Why? That would be counterproductive in hardware cost, labor cost, and operating cost. May as well go one circ conventional.

    Let's use our head in line with what is presently available.
    Your right, I had a brain fart in terms of his GPM/head requirements….
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,576
    edited February 2015
    Steve Thompson said:
    I can assure all of you there are a lot of us at Taco that monitor "The Wall". Keep telling us what you need - we're listening.
    That's great!
    Now if only some other companies out there would see from here what we need, and provide it: Honeywell, Burnham, and more.--NBC

  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    Funny that you would mention those two companies in particular NBC . Are you somehow under the impression that they care about our industry , end users ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • BigRob
    BigRob Member Posts: 322

    bmwpowere36m3 et all... I've been watching this post with great interest (no kidding).

    Being this is a public forum we can't say what we're working on (as much as I want to) but if you think the VR 1816 and VT 2218 are our last entries into the ECM world...

    I can assure all of you there are a lot of us at Taco that monitor "The Wall". Keep telling us what you need - we're listening.

    Hey Steve, can you give us any details regarding the Viridian VR3452? I have a couple good applications for these bad boys. I hope they are affordable. The analog control is awesome.
  • BigRob, please drop me an E Mail at stetho@tacocomfort.com.

    I have some info on this...
    BigRob