One Pipe Expert Needed

Loyd

this first pic is of where the return (floor level pipe) starts
is that cap anything?

Fred

The vertical drop is where the dry return at the end of the Main drops down (vertically) to the wet return. Where ever he cuts (if a cut is necessary) that section of pipe will have to be replaced with two new sections of pipe and a union. If you already have a union somewhere along the wet return, just take it apart and flush the wet return out or if the Maain venting is mounted right at the end of the Main where it drops to the wet return, take the vent off and use that opening to flush the return out.
I'd be inclined to do this kind of job when it's warm outside.

Fred

If you can get that cap off, that would be a place to use a hose and try to flush the wet return out but I'd still be inclined to use the vent opening. It's more direct and you won't blow gunk into the vent.
When you hose it out, you still need some place at the floor level, before the boiler that can drain out the crap you flush out of the return.

JUGHNE

Does the horizontal pipe under the yellow broom handle go to the boiler into the little drain valve at the floor? Are there any other pipes connected to it between the broom handle and boiler?
A simple test I would do (on a warm day) is remove the air vent, remove the clean-out cap on the tee near the vent. See what in in the tee, push the broom handle in to make sure it is open to the vertical drop pipe. Then get about 6' of hard flexible plastic tubing that fits down the vent hole. Engineer a female hose fitting on the tubing, shove maybe 5 feet of tubing down the vent hole. You want to get near the bottom near that. Leave the cap off of the tee. Install a good drain valve (as mentioned as above)on the boiler end of the return.

With someone holding the tubing down the vent hole, turn the garden hose water on slooowy . The water going down the vent should all come out of the new drain valve at the boiler. Leave that cap off and if water backs up it will come out there. You don't want to back water up into any other pipes. And you don't want any of this to go into the boiler.

If the water flows open it up and flush as much as you can.
If it won't flow much and you get wet from the cap end then you know how slow it is.
How long is the pipe near the floor from the air vent end to the boiler? Is part of the "floor" pipe buried or covered on its way to the boiler?
If plugged beyond flushing, then a new can of worms is opened because of what looks to be asbestos on the horizontal wet return near the floor.

Edit: sorry Fred, I didn't mean to walk on you, that's just how slow I think and type.

Fred

Edit: sorry Fred, I didn't mean to walk on you, that's just how slow I think and type.
Not to worry. we are all just trying to be helpful.

Pumpguy

I deal with State Supply all the time. I called Marcus and discussed this problem. He suggested homeowner call Don O'Brien at Owens Service in St. Paul. Phone # 952 703 5736. I called and talked to Don and he seemed quite knowledgeable about one pipe steam heating problems.

Hope this helps.

Pumpguy

Don's email is dobrien@owensco.

Loyd

Thanks Pumpguy!
And thanks JUGHNE and Fred! Ok broom picture-that pipe goes alllllll the way around the entire basement and ends at the boiler/valve thing.

Last picture is me standing at boiler-light bulb/washing machine is that vent/broom.

No pipes are buried
I have the measurements and diagrams in an attachment posted way above.

JUGHNE

Is there another air vent in the basement? Could you post a picture of it?
Most here would believe that you probably don't have enough air vents...me included.
That return pipe if plugged & leaking could be replaced by a dry return hanging below the ceiling. It would hang below your other steam pipes and might be a head knocker.
What ever your results would you please let us know.

Loyd

this is the other air vent. new as of Nov. like the other one.
I will for sure let you know what's going on-you all are our topic at the dinner table!

Abracadabra

Loyd said:

Don't think it was skimmed-water isn't bouncing.

If boiler was never skimmed, it most likely needs to be skimmed. without a skim port on the boiler you will have a difficult time skimming the boiler.

I am also curious about the tee that's capped off in one of your pictures. Are those both dry returns being vented by that one vent?

You really need to lower the pressuretrol as low as it will go. Probably somewhere around .5-.75 psi

Abracadabra

sludge said:

go hot water and forget about it. Pipe it per Holohan "Pumping away"

Uhm.. no.. steam beats hot water every day of the week.

wogpa67

I'm a hot water guy but I do install steam on occasion. First thing I do is RTFM 3 times. I've never had any issues doing it that way. I would say it would not be very cost effective to convert a one pipe steam to hot water. Let the Steamheads fix that badboy.

Abracadabra

sludge said:

Abracadabra said:

sludge said:

go hot water and forget about it. Pipe it per Holohan "Pumping away"

Uhm.. no.. steam beats hot water every day of the week.

Then brake out your magic wond "Abracadabra" and don't ask how to fix your problem....LOL

Think about it... why aren't there many steams systems out there? DUUUUH. Lets see.. becuz I have to filling my system, uhhh, I can't figure out how to fix it.

When I was in the Navy, we were always fixing steam leaks. Steam systems beat up valve packing.

Excuse me? I'm not the OP. I'm trying to help him fix his problem. You aren't making sense.

BobC

I'll bet those navy steam systems were running at a lot higher presure than a residential system (1.5 PSI max).

Bob

Steamhead

sludge said:

go hot water and forget about it. Pipe it per Holohan "Pumping away"

You must like living dangerously. Ever seen a conversion that leaked all over the building due to the vastly increased operating pressure that hot-water needs? I have. And when I do, I walk away and let the lawyers fight it out.

KC_Jones

sludge said:

I can't figure out how to fix it.

I am sorry you can't figure out steam heating problems, but please don't pawn your shortcomings off on the rest of us.

Loyd

So anyway!...
My husband and I are taking all your helpful ideas and continue to work on this.

Fred

Cleaning out the wet return is not a major system failure. Basically it's a maintenance item that should be done periodically. The old reccommendation was to replace the wet returns when a new boiler is installed. Most new installations now include some valves and outlets for flushing. When/if you have any of those wet return pipes taken apart, just have your plumber install some unions and flush valves at an appropriate location on those returns and use them to drain the wet returns maybe once a season.
If you have to cut one of those pipes, just use two shorter pipes and a union to tie things back together. Not a big deal and better in the long run.

JUGHNE

Did anyone ever hear the rest of the story of "Loyd" in St Paul with the water loss etc.??

Loyd

I'm still here!
The theory now is that there's a pipe near one of the main vents that needs a vent also. Next I need someone to just do the work. I contacted one posters "guy" and will again soon about this latest issue.

SWEI

Pumpguy said:

He suggested homeowner call Don O'Brien at Owens Service in St. Paul. Phone # 952 703 5736. I called and talked to Don and he seemed quite knowledgeable about one pipe steam heating problems.

Tell him to swing by here and have a look. Pretty sure we've had several building owners here looking for help in MSP.

JUGHNE

Loyd, I tried to send you a personal message, not sure if it went your way or not. Everyone else is much more efficient with computer than I am.....so maybe it never arrived. You could PM me if you wish.

Loyd

Still figuring out water loss from boiler and spitting vents

Abracadabra

Loyd said:

Still figuring out water loss from boiler and spitting vents

If boiler was never skimmed, it most likely needs to be skimmed. without a skim port on the boiler you will have a difficult time skimming the boiler.

Fred

As Abracadabra said, do figure out a way to skim that boiler. It may take two or three very slow skims but you have to get the oils off of the top of the water and you can't do that by draining the boiler. The oils will just cling to the sides of the boiler block and float again when the boiler is filled. That's a Burnham boiler so the Pressure relief valve is mounted on the side (back) of the boiler. You can take that Pressure Relief valve off and use that opening to skim. That's the easiest way to do it. I too have a Burnham and it never had a proper skim port installed but the Pressure Relief valve opening works just as well.
The other thing you need to check is the Pigtail (looped pipe) that the Pressuretrol is mounted on. When they are mounted on that #67 McDonnell Miller low Water Cut-off like that, especially using a 1/4 inch elbow, the pigtail gets clogged faily easily and especially the 1/4 inch elbow gets clogged almost always. When those things are clogged, even though the Pressuretrol is set properly, it can's see the actual pressure and allows the boiler pressure to go way up. That, by itself will push water out into your system and cause vents and valves to spit water. I know, I've been there. Skim the boiler and clean that pigtail/1/4 inch elbow and I'm betting most of your issues will be resolved.