What's Up With These Radiators?

WrenchHead

I recently purchased an 1890's-1900's brick home (well, house...it's no home yet!). It's been abused throughout the years, so I am currently ripping everything out down to the brick and starting over... I tore out the ancient Burnham boiler which had been adapted to the gravity system of whatever coal behemoth sat there previously. Enough of the back-story... The house still has the original cast-iron radiators which I love, and plan on re-using with my new hot water system. I have moved all the 'smaller' ones which I can manage by myself, and I'm now left with the giants... I plan on filling the void between the two courses of brick with closed-cell foam, replace the windows, and spray foam on the under side of the roof sheathing in the 3rd floor... After taking this into account, and running load calculations, there are a few rooms that I can/need to decrease the size of the radiators.

I've broken down cast-iron radiators before (when absolutely necessary...) and all of them I've ever dealt with have a "torsion" rod of sorts running through the sections, bolted at both ends. None of my radiators have rods... I can't see any way that they are held together...I've attached some pics of one of the larger radiators that I would like to take some sections out of, as well as another radiator with "American Radiator Co." stamped on one side and "Peerless" cast above the inlet/outlet plug... They are two different styles, but all are marked 'Peerless' and all have no rods... Obviously they have to be held together some how right? I plan to take all the radiators out and bring them to my shop where I can flush them and wash them. I just want to make sure I won't damage them en route... I read one post on the wall about a radiator manufacturer using threaded nipples between sections instead of press nipples... Could that be what I have? Has anyone else encountered these before, and what kind of headache am I in for? I appreciate your time and advice, Thanks!

Abracadabra

Yes.. threaded nipples.. taking them apart... I'd forget about it. jmho. others here may have other opinions.

RobG

leave them oversized, it will allow you to run lower water temps and you won't have to make new holes in the floor to center them. One other thing to consider before you fill the air space between the brick is that it was put there for a reason, to allow moisture to flow in and out.

FranklinD

I also have that style radiator...held together by threaded nipples between each section as I understand it. And apparently they don't/won't come apart, and even if they do, the nipples could be wrecked. And if anyone makes or sells them in different sizes anymore, I haven't found them.

Leave the radiators full sized...you'll be able to run a lower water temperature.

icesailor

Are those painted floors under that short, long radiator maple?

I hope that you don't rip them out and replace it with laminate wall paper flooring. Is the trim Fir or Maple too?

Looks like a gem.

That project can cost Mucho Dinero. (Much Money). If the gravity system is still intact, consider if possible, to use a 4-way thermostatic mixer with ODR and run it that way. Leave the big old pipes. The money you save and the comfort you enjoy will leave you money to get those floors sanded and maybe the trim too. I once did a house that the entire trim, floors, doors, windows, right down to the bed molding on the baseboard that was solid mahogany.

I'm envious. Course, that might be the best room in the house. The rest might look the gremlins lived there.

vaporvac

Please leave the windows intact, as well. That's a fallacy that new are more efficient. Why take a gem and destroy it's beauty for the supposed "efficiency". Please take a look at oldehouseguy.com before you continue on that course. Even the US gov that was giving rebates for "improvements" agrees. Fix what you have and get good interior or exterior storms. And please keep the roof if it's original tile or slate. Taking the trim off and insulating/sealing underneath is a good thing I can't comment on filling the brick void...I thought that was an insulating airgap. I hope that doesn't result in moisture problems. Maybe better to vaporbarrier and insulate interior since I guess you tore out all the original plaster walls as well.

FranklinD

People are always so quick to ditch the plaster...I like mine. It's excellent sound insulation between rooms and I like to think of it as extra thermal mass
I'm pretty good at repairing it now too.

VaporVac is right on with the windows, too, in my opinion. The originals left in my house are pretty good now that I've disassembled, stripped, re-glazed the original glass where possible, painted, weatherstripped, and so on. Lots of work, but I love the look and the wavy glass. Can't be beat.

Rich_49

DO NOT INSULATE between those walls . You will do more harm than benefit ! That space does indeed need to be there for drainage . Once that house is heated those walls will also offer a whole lot of mass , it is not a big efficiency hit . Air sealing will make a much bigger difference to your usage than a couple R value . Fix all the infiltration that you can and leave the airspace between alone . Before you spray foam at the roof plane you better make damn sure that gets done right too . Visit Green Building Advisor and ask questions about the things you think you want to do , and in the meantime don't watch the DIY network .

WrenchHead

haha! Thanks for all the feedback, I really appreciate it! So the consensus is to leave the radiators intact... Fine by me, and less work too. I am planning on running as low as temp as I can for my boiler. Most likely TT solo 175 with indirect h20. I've got a few rooms I'm going to do radiant floor (viega climate panels) because the floors have been compromised...)
Icesailor: The painted floors are fir of some sort (I think...) but will be sanded and re-finished, and all the trim is some hardwood, I've had people tell me Oak, or Chestnut, it's hard to tell because its 100+ yr old old growth stuff... Really really nice (one of the major selling points for me) and only one room had been painted over! (not a fan of painted wood...) As far as the old piping... I've got it all ripped out... I'm a mechanical contractor with a plumbing; heating; electrical business, so the expense initially will be well worth it! Too many times I see people taking the "easy/cheap" way and it's just a band-aid (in my opinion)... Do it right the first time, do it right once... I can't help but feel a great deal of respect for whomever put that system in originally... back when plumbers held 3' pipe wrenches instead of crimp tools... A lot of work went into those old systems, and I know I'm going to be putting a lot of work back in...
As for the windows... I haven't made up my mind yet. I know windows are minimal as far as efficiency goes, and I hate to get rid of them. Some of the weights have been cut off in the wall, but most are still in good working condition. However, the space where the weights are is a very 'leaky' spot. Any suggestions on how to leave the weights but seal/insulate? My other alternative is to invest in decent storm windows and leave mine as is...
I understand the air-space between the bricks, but if its filled and sealed, then there shouldn't be any room for moisture (or air for that matter) to exist? is that a fallacy? I suppose the thought is that there is no way to make sure it's perfectly sealed off? I'm interested!
Again many thanks for all your comments, it's great to have your feedback!

WrenchHead

Also, I didn't remove the plaster on the brick walls as its in great shape, and I'm not planning to. I don't want to insulate the interior because that will add extra work to all my window/door jambs...

Rich_49

Spray foam is may be considered an air barrier to some extent . A vapor and moisture barrier it will never be . Not a fallacy , it is fact . The effectiveness of the foam will also be severely compromised soon after it starts getting wet . Bugs do like it also , funny thing how after several years of use with a new product problems start to appear that nobody thought would be an issue . Like I said , spend your money air sealing the building , you will like the result much better than a bug infested , damp , sponge between your brick layers .
I like the fact that calcs have been done . How big is the boiler you are putting in ? Sounds like a very large home , is it big ? Did whoever performed the heat loss for you have a building science background and enter information well ?

icesailor

I doubt the trim is oak or chestnut. You should be able to tell. Both woods are very grainy. If it is smooth and looks anything like weird clear pine, it's probably Poplar. The flooring might be Southern Yellow Pine. The old virgin stuff. It really darkens with age. During the early years of the deforestation of America, Southern Yellow Pine was used primarily for structural wooden beams in brick buildings. In many Eastern Cities like Boston, when they were going through their urban renewal phases, they tore these brick buildings down. But salvagers salvaged the beams, resawed them and sold them off for big bucks for flooring and trim.

The flooring you have is probably quarter sawn Douglas Fir. Its dark, harder than pine, and was a popular inexpensive flooring. Put over old wide pine subfloors. Pine was considered (s)crap wood. The plywood of the old days. I've worked in old houses where they ripped up the old wide pine board floors in the attic to get at them and replace them with plywood. If you want that orange color in a pine floor, it has to be old.

SWEI

WrenchHead said:

I am planning on running as low as temp as I can for my boiler. Most likely TT solo 175 with indirect h20.

That's a lot of BTU's for a house. How big is this place?

icesailor

@Wrenchhead:

Do you understand the unintended consequence of that air space between the brick and the plaster?

Gordy

Stone,brick, and concrete are,porous materials they absorb moisture, and reject it. The drainage plane in the airspace is there for a reason. Do not fill that void!

WrenchHead

Thanks for the insight. I understand the air-space's function, and I get that the brick will generate 'thermal mass.' That brick will also generate the same mass in the summer, thus making my cooling loads immense to say the least. Several old brick homes around my area have had cellulose and vermiculite blown in between the brick courses, and I'm not aware of any moisture issues... I'm not saying there can't be, I definitely see the issue with the porous nature of the brick. I've just been going on what I have heard/been recommended from local builders.

icesailor

WrenchHead said:

Thanks for the insight. I understand the air-space's function, and I get that the brick will generate 'thermal mass.' That brick will also generate the same mass in the summer, thus making my cooling loads immense to say the least. Several old brick homes around my area have had cellulose and vermiculite blown in between the brick courses, and I'm not aware of any moisture issues... I'm not saying there can't be, I definitely see the issue with the porous nature of the brick. I've just been going on what I have heard/been recommended from local builders.

If you DO do the above, like others have, be SURE that all your gutters and downspouts work and don't overflow and drain on to the bricks. That's how moisture gets in in the winter. Although heat flows to the cold in the winter, dampness still flows to dryness. The inside is dryer. Too much moisture coming through brick walls is a very bad thing.

Go look at any old house under renovation. On the outside, rot is always in corners with valley's above where there is too much roof to be drained into a valley and collected without over splash in the gutter corner. And if you see little maple trees growing out of the gutter, it's a sure sign that the gutter needs to be cleaned out.

NYC007

Had the Same question with the windows in my home..Last Summer I ripped them out and replaced with the best I can - With 20-30 degree weather in NY, I can touch the glass from the inside and its not freezing at all- and wow what a difference- I did happen to sell the old single pane windows-They sold fasssst..to people creating artwork etc....Happy this Winter I replaced~