Lochinvar WHN055 Direct vs. P/S Piping

ced48

I like the infinite adjustability of the Taco Viridian, and yes, the 15-58 that comes with the boiler. I would use the 1816 on all of my loops. You will love the fact that you can fine tune the speed to give you the flow you want, delta t ect. I put up with those Grundfos pumps for a year, and the are just to darn big. Oh, I have a WH55, and other than spending the last year of my life fine tuning it and the system, I love it.

bmwpowere36m3

I wanted to thank all those that have helped in answering questions and hopefully sharing some hydronic knowledge…

The piping begins

Heat_n_CT

Keep the pics coming, love to see the progression.

bmwpowere36m3

DWH plumbed

Heat_n_CT

First off I'm no pro, I'm barely an informed homeowner. I've seen it in other pictures and I've scratched my head over and over about how the DHW is piped off the boiler. Won't there be flow off the boiler to the tank during CFH? Won't there be some gravitational flow during CFH? Which is fine when your flowing 130* or 140* from the boiler - free tank warming, but what about when you only push 110* or 115* from the boiler? Will that cooler flow lower the tanks 125* or 140* set point and trigger a DHW cycle when there is no demand for HW?

Thanks.

Gordy

He is pumping into the boiler. Yes there should be check valves on the discharge side of the circulator, but in this case I believe the circs have integral flow checks.

icesailor

What a wonderful application for a hydraulic separator.

Gordy

While true if labor is free, and time not of the essence then closely spaced ts, and copper will do the job for a lesser cost.

hot_rod

Gordy said:

While true if labor is free, and time not of the essence then closely spaced ts, and copper will do the job for a lesser cost.

Maybe not when you add air, dirt, and magnetic separation to the hydraulic separation function. None of which I see in the picture?

Also some P/S piping arrangements end up needing two air eliminators to "smooth" out.

Gordy

hot rod said:

Gordy said:

While true if labor is free, and time not of the essence then closely spaced ts, and copper will do the job for a lesser cost.

Maybe not when you add air, dirt, and magnetic separation to the hydraulic separation function. None of which I see in the picture?

Also some P/S piping arrangements end up needing two air eliminators to "smooth" out.

I dont disagree to a point. "depends" right? Im holding my thoughts until I see the finished outcome in this particular thread.

bmwpowere36m3

For dirt "seperation" I have a wye strainer on the boiler return from the tees. And air seperation will be via spirotherm at the top of the zone loop/common piping.

It's a totally new system and emitters, I figure even the wye strainer is overkill at the moment. Down the road if dirt becomes an issue, I'll add a cyclone dirt seperator like the caleffi one.

hot_rod

Wye strainers are great for clean systems

Seriously, you should be fine with a new system and piping. If you find any black gunk down the road, add a magnetic separator to protect the ECM.

bmwpowere36m3

The only iron/steel I see in the system will be the panel radiators and circs... everything else is copper/brass/SS. I'm curious how the water will look once in service.

SWEI

If you keep the system airtight and use relatively OK water, you should see a thin layer of magnetite (grey) in your PEX after awhile. It will benefit from a magnetic separator. If it turns reddish brown, you have oxygen issues.

bmwpowere36m3

@SWEI

I was thinking of incorporating a rare earth magnet, like 1/4" x 1" into the NPT plug of the wye-strainer. It would stick into the flow of the strainer. Like this:

<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/08/d6b74b0796083777edc4b12027e9e3.gif" />

Some more mocking up... hopefully I get my radiant manifold soon and can finish up the zone piping.

<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/d4/f0f3d7be5a5828c2b0a707f465774e.jpg" />

bmwpowere36m3

more work

hot_rod

You need to isolate the magnet or else the entire iron body would become magnetized.

Here is how we are doing the large 2- 6" Caleffi steel body separators. The magnets fit into a brass well. The magnet is segmented so if the sep is mounted on or close to the floor you can still remove and insert it.

The magnet is in a sealed dry well, so it can be removed without isolating the fluid.

Turn off the pump, remove magnet and flush particles out.

Magnetite is common in any system with non-barrier tube.

However it's actually showing up in barrier tube systems also. Probably has always been there, but ECM circs are attracting it and locking rotors.

Perhaps with PSC motors it stayed in suspension and did not cause problems?

RJMCTAFO

Only thing I see is to check if you can rotate that auto feed off I case of service. A lot of times they are too close to things to spin off and require cutting the pipe and adding a union. May be fine but hard to tell from photo.

Nice clean work.

bmwpowere36m3

hot rod said:

You need to isolate the magnet or else the entire iron body would become magnetized.

Here is how we are doing the large 2- 6" Caleffi steel body separators. The magnets fit into a brass well. The magnet is segmented so if the sep is mounted on or close to the floor you can still remove and insert it.

The magnet is in a sealed dry well, so it can be removed without isolating the fluid.

Turn off the pump, remove magnet and flush particles out.

Magnetite is common in any system with non-barrier tube.

However it's actually showing up in barrier tube systems also. Probably has always been there, but ECM circs are attracting it and locking rotors.

Perhaps with PSC motors it stayed in suspension and did not cause problems?

Not sure what you mean by "entire iron body"... the wye-strainer is all brass, expect for the SS screen. I figure I can glue a neodymium magnet onto the end of the NPT plug and it'll partially stick into the flow.

Every so often, close the BVs on either side of the strainer, remove the NPT plug and wipe the magnet. At least that's how I picture it. Like a magnetic drain plug for an engine oil pan.

bmwpowere36m3

RJMCTAFO said:

Only thing I see is to check if you can rotate that auto feed off I case of service. A lot of times they are too close to things to spin off and require cutting the pipe and adding a union. May be fine but hard to tell from photo.

Nice clean work.

Yeah it's hard to see, but there's is room to spin it off in case of service.

Thanks. I left the layout somewhat open, since I know in the near future I'll be adding an additional zone or two.

hot_rod

bmwpowere36m3 said:

hot rod said:

You need to isolate the magnet or else the entire iron body would become magnetized.

Here is how we are doing the large 2- 6" Caleffi steel body separators. The magnets fit into a brass well. The magnet is segmented so if the sep is mounted on or close to the floor you can still remove and insert it.

The magnet is in a sealed dry well, so it can be removed without isolating the fluid.

Turn off the pump, remove magnet and flush particles out.

Magnetite is common in any system with non-barrier tube.

However it's actually showing up in barrier tube systems also. Probably has always been there, but ECM circs are attracting it and locking rotors.

Perhaps with PSC motors it stayed in suspension and did not cause problems?

Not sure what you mean by "entire iron body"... the wye-strainer is all brass, expect for the SS screen. I figure I can glue a neodymium magnet onto the end of the NPT plug and it'll partially stick into the flow.

Every so often, close the BVs on either side of the strainer, remove the NPT plug and wipe the magnet. At least that's how I picture it. Like a magnetic drain plug for an engine oil pan.

I didn't catch the bronze Y strainer, it should work as you plan.

The larger you can get the Y strainer, the more you will drop flow velocity.

That is one of the keys to top quality air, dirt, and hydro separation, create a "low velocity" zone, drop flow fps to 2 or so, thru the device to better grab air and dirt.

bmwpowere36m3

Here's the plug:


1/2" NPT brass plug, 1/2" x 1" neodymium magnet, sanded part of magnet and plug bore, epoxied with JB Weld.

icesailor

RJMCTAFO said:

Only thing I see is to check if you can rotate that auto feed off I case of service. A lot of times they are too close to things to spin off and require cutting the pipe and adding a union. May be fine but hard to tell from photo.

Nice clean work.

Some of us have discovered that if you undo the four screws holding the top of the PRV on, and remove it, you can remove the valve without cutting the pipe.

icesailor

bmwpowere36m3 said:

more work

Why is there a 1/2" Cop X FPT adapter on the outlet of the overpriced air eliminator/scoop that collects imaginary air for years?

bmwpowere36m3

icesailor said:

bmwpowere36m3 said:

more work

Why is there a 1/2" Cop X FPT adapter on the outlet of the overpriced air eliminator/scoop that collects imaginary air for years?

Just a "place-holder" in case I want to plumb the "vent" of the air eliminator to the floor... in case it ever sticks open and starts gushing water.

icesailor

Put a 1/2" IPS brass coupling, a brass nipple and 1/2" brass reducing ell and a brass float vent in the ell. It will be open and venting, and if your unlikely scenario occurs, the float vent will vent and close. And not leak. Redundant safety.

Should you ever want to drain the system by blowing it out with air, you need to cap that off to stop the air leak. This way, you just tighten down the float vent cap and be done.

And it looks nicer.

bmwpowere36m3

icesailor said:

Put a 1/2" IPS brass coupling, a brass nipple and 1/2" brass reducing ell and a brass float vent in the ell. It will be open and venting, and if your unlikely scenario occurs, the float vent will vent and close. And not leak. Redundant safety.

Should you ever want to drain the system by blowing it out with air, you need to cap that off to stop the air leak. This way, you just tighten down the float vent cap and be done.

And it looks nicer.

Judging by most of the installation pictures I see of the Spirotherm (air eliminator), the threaded vent nipple is left alone. I did see a few, where a line was connected to the nipple and routed down to the floor or trap.

Honestly I don't know whether it's worth worrying about, I doubt it. If I do connect a line, I'll just sweat up a 1/2" copper line to the 1/2" female adapter. I guess its the same principal as those Taco Hy-Vents, but with those if they start leaking... you just tighten down the cap. No cap with the Spirotherm.

*edit* I see what your saying about the blowing the system out with air... but then its "another" vent to worry about.

hot_rod

Usually air vents leak when nobody is watching If they are placed over expensive components, boiler, relay boxes, pumps, etc damage may occur until they are discovered and repaired.

Here are some simple and inexpensive options.

If the vent has the common 1/4'' BSP, this little adapter converts that to npt, then add a compression adapter to 1/4 copper tube.

Or this hygroscopic cap has cellulose washer that swell when when to catch a leak.

For the 1/2" Spiro, a FIP X pex ell works. I like to cut the "lugs" off for a cleaner look, if you cannot find the ell without mounting lugs. 1/2" pex, vinyl tube, or dishwasher hose for the drip leg.

RJMCTAFO

The way I look at an autofeed is that it's an assembly. If I take it apart and then there is a leak who is responsible? I would rather take the time and pipe it so its service friendly than take a chance having an issue.

hot_rod

I agree, air vents in critical locations and back flow preventer vents should be piped to the floor. It's a matter of when, not if they will squirt or leak someday.

I'm not sure a hydronic system is ever 100% air free and stays that way, unless you add O2 scavengers via hydronic treatment chemicals. Even with an "air tight" system O2 molecules can continue to enter at several places, mostly plastic tubing, but also around seals, o-rings, and crimp fittings. And air vents can sometimes allow air back into the system.

bmwpowere36m3

@hot rod

That's why I left adapters threaded in temporarily in case I ever get to piping the "vents" for both the spirotherm and backflow preventer…

My father says I'm borderline OCD… haha, love him though.

bmwpowere36m3

I'm at a point that I just want to finish the "initial" piping and get the system working… though for heat it's a bit late. That's why I left room on the board, because I know I'd definitely be adding at least one more zone and I don't know if I'll need mixing (on slab radiant is the plan for now, if not more panel radiators).

bmwpowere36m3

Gas line and vents plumbed

Heat_n_CT

did you ever get this running before a/c season started?

bmwpowere36m3

Heat_n_CT said:

did you ever get this running before a/c season started?

No, I didn't.