Slant fin 80 baseboards vs radiant heat

monty1970

We are under construction and we are deciding between slant fin 80 baseboards or radiant heat- Is there a huge difference in price( radiant would be approx 9 zones) and if so how huge- House is 2200 sq ft-

Gordy

Probably baseboards being cheaper, but unmatched in comfort.

What stage in construction are you in?

Was a heat load calculation done on a room by room basis?

How are you dividing your zoning?

What will be your heat source?

bmwpowere36m3

I had the same dilemma, either install lots of BB or go with radiant panels. I started my search online and priced out S/F 80 BB and Buderus panel radiators. The Buderus panels were approximately double in price for the same BTU output.

I further researched a few other brands of radiators and found better pricing on them. In the end I talked to my local plumbing supplier who can get Buderus panels. He's offering me pricing that's half of what I found online (granted he is a friend of ours). So it's really an affordable choice for myself.

Best thing I can say is to research and get a few price comparisons....

Panel radiators worth looking at are: Buderus, Hydronic Alternatives, DiaNorm, Myson, Pensotti, Biasi and Runtal.

Gordy

I think OP is talking about radiant floor heat.

Ironman

monty1970 said:

We are under construction and we are deciding between slant fin 80 baseboards or radiant heat- Is there a huge difference in price( radiant would be approx 9 zones) and if so how huge- House is 2200 sq ft-

If you'll read some of the posts on here, you'll find that there are several radiant floor installation methods and products that work well. You'll also find that they're a lot hack methods and products that claim to work but cost much less. Beware of these: you'll spend a lot of good money only to be plagued by a system that won't heat properly because you're swallowed the lure of low price.

One thing is for certain: radiant heat requires proper design and installation by someone with extensive knowledge of it. It's not something where you just run tubing and assume it will perform correctly.

It is absolutely the most comfortable and ecconomical type of heat that's readily available. But that comes with a corresponding price tag. You get what you pay for.

A BB system will mostly likely be cheaper in price, but will also be less efficient as it requires high water temps with standard BBs which mean lower boiler efficiency. It will give less comfort than radiant, but would still be much preferred over forced air.

On another note: 9 zones on any low mass boiler will cause short cycling which greatly shortens it life unless some form of buffer is added. If you're contemplating do this as means to save energy, please don't. Hydronics, and particularly radiant floors are a smooth, slow response system that you leave set at a constant temp. Turning it up and down, on and off won't save energy and will only sacrifice comfort it the process.

Again, proper design is fundamental and essential to getting a good system. Find someone who knows how before you make decisions and start installing.

Snowmelt

Baseboard is a lot cheaper. End of story.

psb75

Baseboard is a lot cheaper. End of story.

To install. Operation costs? The story continues…...

Rich_49

If you are thinking of baseboard you should be looking at this .

http://www.smithsenvironmental.com/HE_Submittal.pdf

Comparable in price to #80 if not less expensive , depending upon wholesaler or point of purchase . Higher output at same temps and similar output at lower temps . If you are thinking of a choice between radiant and baseboard the source becomes the factor here . Mod Cons like lower entering water temps ( return water) to maximize efficiencies .
At some point guys I would like to begin a discussion on why this particular baseboard has so much more output . I have a theory that I would like to get opinion on .

Tinman

I agree with everything Ironman said and couldn't have said it better myself. But if I was forced to go the route of baseboard, it would be of the cast iron variety. Pricey, but increased comfort level because of its ability to retain heat. The two big players are Burnham and Weil McLain and I've installed plenty of both but prefer the look of the WM.

Gordy

Really the smiths are a better alternative. Function over style is in the eye of the beholder. Gaudy yes, efficient yes! Especially when looking at HE heat sources.

Tinman

I get that but I'd have a hard time putting anything ugly in my home other than my dog.

Rich_49

Cast Iron baseboard is pretty ?
It allows no room for different piping variations and various outputs . And if low temps and efficiency are of concern (bet they are) you would have to install it wall to wall to lower temps enough .

Tinman

No, it's not exactly pretty but I've installed it In some really high end homes with it being the lady of the home's choice. I've yet to see fin tube baseboard hold up to vacuum cleaners and kids. Gordy hit it on the head with aesthetics being subjective. I've piped it every way you can think of ...reverse return, series loop, home run, etc. I can't argue with the efficiency angle. Ya got me there.

Tinman

Probably a moot point anyway, I'd be selling radiant, radiant, and more radiant.

Rich_49

If you look closely at the heating edge you'll see you'd be hard pressed to crush it with a vacuum . It's pretty damn sturdy in actuality , tough stuff . Then again , who wants to beat the hell out of their 1,000.00 vacuum against anything ? LMAO . Amazing what people will spend their money on while counting pennies on the important stuff

SWEI

Personally, I prefer the look of either the 12" Myson Select or Runtal UF to any of the other baseboard options (cast iron baseboard in some historic buildings excepted.)

Tinman

This Myson product was one of my favorites at the AHR Expo.

Ironman

The only thing, make that two things, that I don't like about the Smithes HE is that it has no damper to regulate each one individually and it can be extremely difficult in some remodels to pipe both tubes together and connect them to existing risers that aren't exactly plumb.

Tinman

I use this one footer as a sales tool when offering iron. I like the color black and realize I'm probably in the minority there. I also like things that last a long time. But, I agree with Rich's point.

Gordy

I like black. And as far as looks panel rads hands down.....very elegant in a modern way.

monty1970

The real reason I am trying to find the answer is because I think my plumber is a thief- We did not change in middle of project- the change to go from 9 zones to 4 zones was made before we started- We had issue and decided to go with baseboard in the 4 bedrooms- Fast forward and now plumber is trying to tell me the installation of the slant fin 80 was same cost of the radiant- I am looking for feedback from an honest plumber under what scenario would this ever be true- All our walls were open- pipes easy to run- All I am getting on other forums is yelled at for being mad because plumber is dishonest- are all plumbers dishonest- This was a 40-50k job as it is- Why try to rip off a client who already is paying you top dollar-

Gordy

If the base board was same cost for him to do as radiant he must have been going to do a POS design. Like staple up no plates 16" on center. Even then...... Or was going to give you an excellent radiant design, and is dipping you on the base board. I'm thinking the previous.

monty1970

He used http://www.uponor-usa.com/ for radiant- slant fin 80 for baseboards- We have brand new boiler- Alpine burnham- its a new house- Very stressful experience going through a whole house renovation-

Gordy

What was his radiant design? Or don't you know. Was it for the whole house, or certain zones?

monty1970

Radiant was used for whole house except the bedrooms- trying to attach pictures of layout- see if it works

Bob Bona_4

Generally 9" on center. ..gypsum pour or cement? 3 loops in that room looks like...nothing looks horrible from the pics. BB in the bedrooms is acceptable practice. Can't comment on costs without seeing the scope of both types of emmitter.

monty1970

cement- Under what scenario would slant fin 80 in the bedrooms not cost less- that is what i am trying to determine- The fact plumber has been avoiding giving me itemized breakdown since the start and we had discussion on updated price which he ignores also- Now we are almost done and out of the blue he tells me he crunched all the numbers and price is same. It is impossible in my opinion and he just does not want to give up money even if he did not do the work. I do not think he layed the radiant he did bad- I just think my price is wrong because we did not do it in bedrooms- I deserve him to be honest and lower the cost.

Ironman

Was there any other insulation used underneath the foil wrap? It has almost no R value despite its claims.

monty1970

Reason we used foil was in some areas of home it was over slab of concrete- Was this unnecessary also- that stuff isn't cheap

Bob Bona_4

Generally..not always, but generally, radiant floor pour installs are the least costly in the radiant genre because of the minimum of material and reasonable labor allowance on the heating contractor side. The rough in and trim of BB CAN in some cases match or exceed this cost. It's not just piping rough in labor and material, it's trim out time and the BB material.

Of course depending on scope of either.

The next important part is boiler selection, control strategy, and piping..

Bob Bona_4

There are more efficient products available than the foil for insulation/thermal break but this is better than nothing.

monty1970

I purchased the boiler- Alpine burnham. They did all the BB in one day- Are you saying the method of my radiant is less expensive to lay then other methods- Is uponor a good product- Feeling like plumber is screwing me every which way he can.

Ironman

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monty1970 said:

Reason we used foil was in some areas of home it was over slab of concrete- Was this unnecessary also- that stuff isn't cheap

That depends. Was there insulation already under and around the perimeter of the slab? If not, then the foil wrap was better than nothing.

In either case, it provides a thermal break between the slab and the over pour.

monty1970

No- this is an old house built in 1955. We completely gutted and remodeled- which prob wasn't best decision but we are close to done- except for the crook plumber- Who besides saying cost the same- forgets we only are doing 4 zones instead of 9- 5 less thermostats- which he ignores when I ask how much will i be getting credited for that material- Why are so many plumbers dishonest- all I hear are horror stories- and the guy came referred but I think job was bigger than him- he took on 2 much

Bob Bona_4

Laying tube on mesh is less time consuming than other methods like under floor heat transfer plates or pre fab panels that attach to the subfloor. Uponor is one of the top radiant companies in existence. It sounds like maybe a little too much distrust? That's not healthy for you or the plumber.

Gordy

Having ALL the information helps.

monty1970

It is because he does not call and ignores my questions and thinks it will go away- I asked for itemized estimate for the bb and radiant and he refuses. I asked for credit back for 5 thermostats which he told me are $150 each and he refuses(they were not purchased) He has no problem sending change orders but giving back for work not being done- then well I am **** out of luck- Can you tell why I do not trust him- forget the fact he is a primadona who won't even cut a piece a drywall that he needs to cut to connect our mr.steam- I did it- took me a matter of 45 seconds

monty1970

Gordy

I say that because of the type of radiant. I was thinking this was over the top panel, or joist bay with plates. Much more tedious than a slab over pour. As been said.

Bob Bona_4

It's a shame things went south for you guys. Sometimes personalities clash and make a rough go of longer term projects. Try the honey approach?

Rich_49

I think you are looking for an answer that we just cannot give based on the limited information we have .
Baseboard certainly is not cheap , even garbage costs quite a bit of scratch . Radiant tubing is generally inexpensive on a per foot basis and the installation he was doing is not very difficult , as others have stated , probably the easiest of all the install methods . Depending on how your baseboard was piped , how many feet , what material was used it could conceivably be the same .
Many guys also have no idea how to price radiant thinking it is the easiest thing to do unlike many of us here who actually know how to do it and what our time is worth . It would certainly not be the first time someone got themselves in trouble with radiant pricing . Do all have the integrity to eat the bad math and finish the project in a proper fashion ? No , not many . Maybe he is better at pricing baseboard and the math worked out the way it worked out .
Monty , maybe you were part of the problem also . Maybe you read a bunch of stuff on the internet that you took for gospel that was bad information , that happens alot too . Just look around this site and ask yourself , How does it get this bad . We are usually found after the damage is done . Hell , just think , you came here and started a post under false pretenses and got a whole bunch of good , detailed advice , but it's too late for you . We spent a bunch of time sharing best practices , materials , strategies with you when that is not what you required . You wasted our time and in the end we find out you are here to beat the **** out of our entire industry as if we are all thieves . unfortunately there are not alot of really well versed heating designers , installers out there . Honestly , it is not really their fault they suck either , it is more the fault of an industry that at some point quit giving a damn about the science and started making products that any dummy could install . Hey come to our training and we will show you how this magic box on the wall can give you 15 more square feet in your house and 95% AFUE . It's all **** and always was .
Listen , I'm sure we are all sorry to hear about your misfortune , that may not even be misfortune , we really don't know enough .
Maybe we could get some more useful information and a bit less hvac bashing and insults and give you what is real so you feel better or have some information to move forward with some type of action against the ALLEGED THIEF .
Why don't you start by looking up the price per pound for #1 scrap copper and take into consideration that at present we are probably spending 15xs that amount for a 3/4" x 20' piece of Type M tubing . Light metal such as what baseboard cabinets are made of is not inexpensive either . Without looking because I just will not invest the time for your purposes , I'd say 1000' of Uponor HePex costs me about the same amount as 50' of # 80 SF . Don't forget the fittings , labor , solder , flux , straps , supports and the fact that since he used more than one type of heating he probably had to use some type of mixing , those valves are not always cheap either .
there is alot more than one in your position thinks of .
By the way , I'm curious . Was the job 40K or 50K ? That's quite a difference , which was it ?