Steam system radiators not always working

mtsontakis87

hey all, hopefully I can get some great advice here it would greatly be appreciated. Im a landlord of a 4 family house in NYC and I am having huge problems heating up the house. the main problem here is that I have a radiator that doesnt always work. sometimes it gets extremely hot and sometimes it doesnt work at all. the radiators on the 3rd floor (last floor). I have changed all airvents on that floor to new Hoffman D's . and made sure that all the valves are open. also I have checked the pitch and that is fine aswell ... another problem is that I feel that heat Is not going to the third floor fast enough, causing the thermostat which is on the 2nd floor to close too early not giving it enough time to heat up the third floor. and the temp. difference is huge ...it was 68 this morning on the second floor and 58 on the third floor ... I also raised the pressure a bit on the boiler but this didn't help. pleaaasseee help I brought a plumber in a few days ago and he says everything looked fine but I think hes full of crap.

JStar

Start by turning the pressure down as low as it can go. Low pressure steam moves faster than high pressure steam. Do you also have any main vents on the steam mains?

KC_Jones

It sounds like you have a venting issue. What kind of venting is on the mains? The mains need to be vented properly before you can get the rads vented correctly. Raising the pressure is no good, these systems should be run as low as possible. What pressure are you running now? A Hoffman D? Are you sure it's a Hoffman and not a Gorton D? If it is a Gorton D that is a HUGE vent and probably not needed unless the radiator is gigantic. Post some pictures of the boiler piping and the main vents in the basement. Another possibility is you may need to vent the vertical runs to the radiators to get the steam upstairs quickly. This is sometimes necessary in taller applications. The general idea is to get steam to all radiators at the same time with the main venting and then you can vent individual radiators as needed. Where are you located? We may be able to recommend a good steam man in your area.

mtsontakis87

KC your right they are gorton not Hoffman. I will take pictures and post them later today. and any recommendations to a good steam guys is appreciated. I live in Brooklyn NY

Fred

How close to a radiator is the thermostat? If close, you may need to put a smaller vent on that radiator to allow enough cycle time for all the radiators to get steam and heat more evenly. I suspect the radiator in question gets hot at times when the boiler has an opportunity to run longer (colder weather) and doesn't have enough time to heat on milder days.
Also, is the radiator in question near the end of the Main? As has been said, enough Main Venting to get all the air out is important.

mtsontakis87

the thermostat is a good ways away from any radiator. the major problem is that the radiators on the last floor are not getting steam fast enough . especially the one in question. there is another radiator on the same Line on the First floor which gets hot always, then it shoots up to the third floor. but the one on the third floor doesnt always get hot .. barely ever! i am also having the same problem with another two radiators on the second floor. when one gets hot the other one doesnt.. this is so wierd.. but this apartment is warm enough and im not getting much complaints .. but the one on the third floor has to be resolved somehow. i hope the pictures help

Fred

How long has this problem been going on? Is there any possibility that the boiler burner is not firing like it should? Have you had the gas company check the pressure coming into the building and at the boiler? It almost sounds like the boiler is not making enough steam to fill the system.
EDIT: If this has always been a problem, I'd look at the near boiler piping as well. That header is so small (looks like 2" pipe) and they only used one riser out of the boiler. The Header should have been at least 3" and both riser tappings out of the boiler should have been used. Also, the risers to the Mains are about 2" but the Mains themselves look very large. I'm wondering if enough steam can get through those risers and that header to feed those Mains.
If it has worked all these years (I'm guessing that Burnham boiler to be about 30 years old) then check the burner and gas supply into the building and at the boiler.

mtsontakis87

here are the measurements you asked for Hatterasguy....also the length of the main is 20'

mtsontakis87

i just switched this tiny vent with a D sized vent will this help?

Fred

There should be at least 1, probably 2 Gorton 2's on a Main that size. That will require a 1/2" tapping in that Main. That D won't help a whole lot.

KC_Jones

To give you a comparison a single Gorton 2 is equivalent to 3 of those D vents. And I would agree at least one maybe 2 on that main. And that would be for just that one main. How long and what size pipe is the other main? BTW that measurement means that main is 2" pipe. It would be my guess that this was a coal system and when the conversion was done many years ago no one addressed the venting. There is some work to be done here with the venting. The mains need addressed or you will never get the rest working properly. I also agree with Fred judging by the physical size of that boiler both tappings should have been used with bigger piping. Do you know what the connected EDR is on the system? I just took another look at the boiler piping, how many mains do you have? There are tee's right above the header and I can see at least one other pipe coming off of one, but can't tell on the other.

Paul48

What about the tees on the system risers? I see on pipe coming out the side of the riser, is that suppose to be feeding a main?

Fred

Paul48 said:

What about the tees on the system risers? I see on pipe coming out the side of the riser, is that suppose to be feeding a main?

Yea, there's something going on there but I can't tell what.

mtsontakis87

here are some more pictures ... i also found another Air valve on the end of that main ...see pictures\

mtsontakis87

there is also another Air valve on the other main that goes to the other half of the House that is also like ... https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/c3/0yustkgoh4y9.jpg

Fred

That location at the end of this Main is a 3/4" opening. That is the ideal location to use the Gorton vents, at least on that Main. Thgen you can take that small vent out of that elbow and [ut a 1/8 " plug in there. Now you need to find a similar situation on the other Main/Return for venting.

Fred

Does that smaller pipe that elbows off of the riser go directly to just 1 or 2 radiators?

mtsontakis87

the main is 20' ... so from that 3/4" tapping to the d valve i put in is 20'...... this main feeds 5 raditors but it split like in this Picture (see link)https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/c3/0yustkgoh4y9.jpg

one pipe feeds 3 radiator and the other 2radiators ...all radiators on this main work randomly

mtsontakis87

Are these the #2's ?? http://www.gorton-valves.com/_2_1_2__vertical

mtsontakis87

so here is how i installed my gorton #2 ...i know hatterguy said to install it with reducing elbows and nipples but i thought this was much easier.... does this installation look like it might cause a problem ???

also a plumber friend of mine told me that if my chimney is producign a lot of white smoke (which it is ) then i am loosing steam from somewhere in my boiler system ... is this true???


once again guys i appreciate all the help and if i could buy you all a round of beers i would buy you two!

KC_Jones

If you have steam going up the chimney that means you are leaking at the boiler. In other words it's usually time for a new boiler. How bad is the steam coming out the chimney? The reason for adding elbows and moving the vent is to get it away from the end of main some distance. This helps keep the steam from "beating it up".

mtsontakis87

yea im getting a lotttt of steam comming out the chimney... def not good

Fred

Look for a crack or hole in the top of the boiler block. Unfortunately that will mean a replacement boiler. That boiler is a Burnham, I think. It is probably 30 to 33 years old. It has done well.

mtsontakis87

Guys I have changed the valve to the
Gorton #2 yesterday and there is no difference ... The radiators on the last floor are still cold. I understand I need a new boiler but the steam should still be going up to the third floor.. And I can't beleive the gorton 2 did nothing .. Not even a bit of a difference

KC_Jones

If the leak in your boiler is bad enough and that much steam is going up the chimney it's entirely possible you aren't getting enough steam in the house to support the whole system. It's easy to believe it did nothing if you have a bad leak. All the steam going up the chimney isn't going into the house.

ChrisJ

How much steam from the chimney? It's normal to have a small amount especially if it's in the single digits out. It also depends on how damp your basement is.

Can you take a picture and let us know what the temperature was outside when you took it? Also include relative humidity for outside if possible.

Fred

If there is a hole (of almost any size except maybe the very smallest) that allows steam to go up the chimney, not only is the boiler producing as much steam as it can, which obviously still isn't enough to heat the entire house and a good portion of the outside. Remember steam will take the path of least resistance, which is going to be that hole, BUT, as important, the boiler probably can't build even the minimum amount of pressure necessary to push that steam along the Mains and radiator run-outs.

EDIT: You need that Main venting with any new boiler so that is done, it just isn't a fix for a boiler with a hole in it.