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Converting from EG-45 to EG-40.

2

Comments

  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    Did you clock the meter? What are you firing at?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    Mark N said:

    Did you clock the meter? What are you firing at?

    I haven't yet with this burner.
    With the previous burner I was doing the rated 150,000 input and this one should be 25,000 less due to one less burner tube.

    Being we know the CGV is set right, shouldn't it be consistent? I'll clock it later tonight, trying to troubleshoot a snowblower that doesn't appear to be broken.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    Not sure so that is why I asked.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    edited January 2015
    This is why I risked doing this work today.
    Monday will be 6 degrees below design temp here. Thursday and Friday are showing several degrees below design temp as well.





    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
    I'm so jealous of that snow. If it's going to be cold it might as well snow.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
    ChrisJ
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,518
    @vaporvac We are suppose to get 6" of snow here in Dayton tonight and tomorrow. You are just too far south, you'll miss it.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,088
    You all can keep the snow...I hate the white stuff. I have some laying around that I can pack in a cooler and send to you if you would like. I threaten that to my grandfather in Florida all the time.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,518
    We'll have enough of our own, Thank you Very much!
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    KC_Jones said:

    You all can keep the snow...I hate the white stuff. I have some laying around that I can pack in a cooler and send to you if you would like. I threaten that to my grandfather in Florida all the time.


    Didn't you say you make your wife shovel everything while drinking coffee and watching out the window?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,088
    LMAO. No I said sometimes when I get home from work she has already shoveled the sidewalks and a few times my parking area. Remember she is a stay at home mom. When I am home I shovel or snow blow.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
    I love to X-country ski... just open the door and do it in the street or maybe a park. Last year without any heat, I just couldn't bare being outdoors knowing I had no way to get REALLY warm again. Now I can just bundle all my clothes on the rads and they are TOASTY in no time! That is one advantage no one really talks about for steam heat.
    Shoveling is not so fun, but I figure it's about the same as a run so I treat it like exercise. My real issue is they never plow my road. When I had rear-wheel drive it was impossible to even get out of the driveway unless I backed up.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
    SWEI
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    Preheat times have been around 147 seconds since the conversion. This is the time from when the thermostat calls for heat until steam hits the end of my 29' main.

    Doesn't seem much different than before.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    KC_Jones
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    edited February 2015
    How long has the boiler been off, that it only takes 147 seconds to make steam and vent the main? Do you have electronic ignition? My boiler takes 45 seconds to come up to full fire with electronic ignition. Clock that meter and verify the input.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    edited February 2015
    Mark N said:

    How long has the boiler been off, that it only takes 147 seconds to make steam and vent the main? Do you have electronic ignition? My boiler takes 45 seconds to come up to full fire with electronic ignition. Clock that meter and verify the input.

    Can't clock the meter right now but maybe later tonight.

    Electronic ignition but it's not a stepped valve, just wide open. As far as how long has it been off, typically 17 minutes off 13 minutes on right now. My two best preheat times previously were 60 seconds and 90 seconds. That was the boiler starting up after only being off for 5 or 10 minutes and the old burner.

    What boiler do you have Mark?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    I have a Burnham IN-4.
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    Does the Eco-Steam programming need to be changed to reflect the reduced input to the boiler?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    MarkS said:

    The programming doesn't change, but ChrisJ needs to change the net input value in the configuration. EcoSteam uses the net input number when calculating how long to run the burner. Since Chris is downfiring, he should see increased burn times to maintain the same temperature.

    Yep,
    Changed the setting from 125,000 btu to 104,000 btu and the EcoSteam hasn't skipped a beat. It's working identically to how it was before the change.

    It was 9.8F outside light night and you couldn't tell if the heat was on or off. Absolutely beautiful performance in every room.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    Ok the difference between the 2 firing rates is 350BTU's per minute, and now the burner will run longer to deliver the same exact amount of BTU's as before as calculated by Eco-Steam. So what has changed other than it takes longer to deliver the same amount of BTU's.
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    Are the preheat times remaining the same? If so you're getting a few more minutes of steam to rads at a lower input. How does Eco-Steam deal with different CPH settings for the thermostat, say 1 versus 2 cph.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    edited February 2015
    Mark N, as far as what has changed if you read my initial post I said the reason I was doing this is to slow the system down.

    The oversized radiation and, in my opinion, oversized boiler made it incredibly difficult to maintain a very narrow temperature swing.

    Does reducing the boiler size by only 25,000 btu make a huge difference? No, but it's still an improvement and it should also result in lower pressures when doing a long recovery.

    I have 392sqft of radiation, or 94,080 btus. Add in 3000 btu's for assumed piping losses in the basement and crawlspaces and I have a total of 97,080 worth of radiation I need to feed. 104,000 btu gross output means I'm still oversized by 6920 btus.



    Will the change I made ever result in me getting a return on my money or time? I highly doubt it, but that wasn't why I did it.

    I need to watch the system longer to determine if preheat times are the same or not yet. I just checked and we're around 30F outside right now and my preheat time was 190 seconds which seems typical. If they are longer, it's not enough that I can tell the difference vs outdoor temperature and how often the system is running.

    It will likely be more noticeable on warmer days when the system needs to run 10-15 minutes to get the water boiling.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    edited February 2015
    Don't leave out of your calculations the input needed to heat the boiler block and the water it contains. Please keep us informed.
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    edited February 2015
    I wonder if it s possible for the Eco-steam to cut off the boiler during recovery for set amount of times to allow the latent heat in the rads to do its thing and minimize over shoot. In a sense modulates the output, sort of like PMJ does
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,088
    Mark N said:

    I wonder if it s possible for the Eco-steam to cut off the boiler during recovery for set amount of times to allow the latent heat in my the rads to do its thing and minimize over shoot. In a sense modulates the output; sort of like PMJ does

    That's pretty much what's it's purpose is. Even if the Tstat is calling for heat it will shut down and let things "cook" for a bit then if you still have a call for heat it will fire again and repeat that cycle. I have had one on my system for about a month now and although I am still "playing" with it the system is working beautiful.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    Is that during normal operation or recovery from a setback, or is its operation on hold because you're in recovery.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,088
    All the time, normal and recovery.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    I have a pressure switch set to trip @ 8" WC that tells the EcoSteam to stop heating for 10 minutes. This allows the steam pressure to die off and the radiators to dissipate some heat before trying again.

    I could turn it down, but I felt 8" was a good number for now. I've yet to see it trip though.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    We're expecting to see 0 or just below tonight so this will be another good test on the system.

    The system ran beautifully all week.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356

    My two stage gas valve has been removed and the original factory Honeywell has been reinstalled. I cannot use the first stage as I have no way to control it.

    What about a simple time delay relay? Set the delay based on your time-to steam arrival at the slowest rad?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042

    I've been thinking about this system for the last week. Do these results, with all radiators heating evenly with less than 1 ounce, completely dispel the notion that there is a certain amount of pressure lost in the travel to the rads?

    My guess was that this system cannot work properly as there is just insufficient pressure to drive the steam to all rads at the same time.

    But, you have proved otherwise.

    The generally held belief that several (maybe 3-6) ounces are required seems to be proven completely false.

    I can tell you that my own system also seems to perform perfectly adequate (3 floors) with pressure that runs at 2 ounces or less. I find that quite surprising but somewhat confirming your own results (although nowhere near your minimums).

    My two stage gas valve has been removed and the original factory Honeywell has been reinstalled. I cannot use the first stage as I have no way to control it.


    I'm not sure what to think.

    My best guess is the pipes do cause friction and losses. I would also guess it's like a wire vs current in that the more you try to push through it, the higher the losses are.

    How low can it really go? How low should it go? I don't know. Does going from 1" w.c. to 0.50" w.c. actually save anything? I don't know that either.

    What seems to be talked about a lot is going from 10 PSI to 5 PSI saves something so wouldn't the same be true for 5 PSI to 2.5 PSI, or 2.5 PSI to 1.25 PSI or even 1.25 PSI to 0.625 PSI? At what point does halving the pressure become meaningless?

    Do we even care about the pressure it self or is it more about keeping the boiler cycles long and keeping vents quiet and dirt out of them? What made me start wondering is how did coal boilers work? I highly doubt they lit a huge roaring fire if it was 40F out and they wanted to warm the building a little and some how that heated evenly. Sure, they had slow vents, but is that the only reason?

    I suppose in the end, for most, it's about keeping the customer happy and a balanced quiet system is sure to do that.

    A took a short video the other night of the pressures I was seeing. Not sure why it dropped a little, but it did and it was back up this morning. I believe the ambient during the video was 10F and my two furthest radiators had hot vents.





    Right now my opinion based on only my own system and the short 4 years I've been playing around with this stuff is a 33% oversize is probably too much and unnecessary on a properly operating system. I also feel a Pressurtrol should never limit the boiler in normal operation but should only serve as a safety device. The boiler it self should be the primary limiting device.

    Again, this is only based on what I've personally experienced on my own system. I have no clue how other systems will react under the same conditions. I like messing around with this but I am by no means an expert.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    edited February 2015
    Manifold pressure was a hair too high but I corrected it.

    Not sure what effect 1/5"w.c. has on a 125,000 input burner but it did clock a little too high on the gas meter.

    Don't forget if you click on the thumbnail at the bottom of this post you can get full size pictures. On my computer you have to click twice, once to get it to pop up and again to zoom.









    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    edited February 2015
    Have a very cold week coming up and I'm back to doing a 4 degree setback at night. Might try to talk the wife into a 5 degree setback but can't make any promises.

    During a long recovery the system purrs like a kitten. 30 minutes is nothing as far as pressure is concerned.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    We had a low of -3f last night and I decided to switch to 3 cph and try it out. This morning I checked and saw the livingroom had just under a 1 degree swing all night. 15f out right now and 3 cph Is still working beautifully.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    KC_Jones
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    What are the run times like? How many minutes on, and how many off in between cycles. How was temp maintained in other rooms?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    edited February 2015
    Mark N said:

    What are the run times like? How many minutes on, and how many off in between cycles. How was temp maintained in other rooms?

    While I was watching, run times start to finish were around 13 minutes. Off times were around 5 minutes or longer, but not much longer. The outdoor temperature was 0F to -1F at the time I was watching.

    Other rooms maintained temperature very well but i don't have thermometers in them. They felt good though.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    How do those times compare to 2 CPH?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    Mark N said:

    How do those times compare to 2 CPH?


    Overall burner run time is probably no different than 2 CPH. In theory because the temperature swing was less in the house it should save something, but I doubt anyone could ever notice.

    My objective was to make the temperature swings less in these extreme temperatures and 3 CPH did that for sure.

    I have a gut feeling that once it's above 20F 3 CPH will be going bye bye though.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    How does the Eco-Steam play into this? Does the Eco-Steam cut off the boiler or is it the thermostat?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    Mark N said:

    How does the Eco-Steam play into this? Does the Eco-Steam cut off the boiler or is it the thermostat?

    The EcoSteam can be set for any cycle length, so it's currently set to a 1200 second cycle. It's performing like normal and helps keep the thermostat inline.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,042
    It's currently 9 degrees below design temperature here.








    And the undersized boiler says?


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    KC_JonesMarkS
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,094
    Chris, what was the design temp that was used when the rads were installed? You way well still be above that number. It would not surprise me if that number was -10 degrees.