Steam heating oil 1 pipe system- Radiator cold

Timdog

Hi, I live in RI and have been having a problem this winter with a few of my radiators that are not getting hot, and one in particular that is dead cold. 1st let me say that all the radiators upstairs work fine but, the few that I am having problems with is on the 1st floor with the boiler and associated piping located in the basement. When I balanced out the system by turning the valves off to the upstairs radiators, I noticed that the radiators down stairs produced more heat and was exactly what I was trying to achieve. I then opened the valves back up upstairs to see if the system would hold and it did with the exception of one radiator for which was the main cause of my problem.

When I touched the piping feeding the radiator, it was dead cold. When I disconnected the radiator, after a few minutes the pipe was getting hot and producing steam. I then reconnected the radiator and ensured that the valve was wide open and working properly but the radiator did not get hot and the pipe feeding the radiator went cold. I thought that the radiator itself may be clogged after all these years so I took it outside and with a power washers I sprayed inside the radiator and tilted so that the water could run out of it. I saw dirty water and a little sludge coming out (reddish looking) and I thought this did the trick but had no such luck when I reconnected the radiator. I then hooked a small hose up to a shop vac and inserted it into the vent hole. After a few minutes, the radiator became hot and was working fine until I put the new radiator vent back on and then the radiator went cold again. I took the vent out and the radiator heated back up, but when I put it back in, it went cold. I purchased another new vent but had no such luck. Bottom line, the radiator works fine with the vent out, but once I put in a vent (ventrite) it does not work at all and stays cold. I will also add that the water level on the boiler itself as viewed in the glass keeps going down which I have to manually fill back up every other day or so, but I found no visible signs of leaks (drips, water,) at any of the radiators. I feel that I am close to solving this problem but I would like to run the radiator with the vent rather without as this is the proper way.

Any thoughts, tips, or suggestions?

Thanks

KC_Jones

Getting things right can be a process so first make sure you have some patience. First thing what is your main venting like in the basement? Second just because that rad isn't heating doesn't mean it's a problem with that rad. Something in your system could be giving the steam a path of less resistance and the steam goes to that area instead of to this radiator. You have to start from the ground up with venting. The main venting needs to be correct before you can get radiators vented properly. What type of vents do you have on the radiators? You talk about having to add water every couple days (VERY bad BTW). Have you checked the pitch on all the pipes in the basement as well as all your radiators? This could be an issue if you have water laying in a pipe giving resistance to the steam moving. You would usually hear banging if this was the case, but not always. Pictures would also be good. Pictures of the rad in question as well as a couple shots of the piping in the basement and the piping on the boiler as well. There can be many causes for what is happening and it's a matter of eliminating things one at a time.

JeffM

Sounds like you have narrowed the problem down to venting on the problem radiator, though venting of the main piping in the basement could also be causing some of the trouble. Is the new vent the adjustable type? If you have some radiators in the system with higher capacity air vents you may need to reduce their capacity (switching them to smaller vents, or adjusting them to a lower setting) to get steam to all radiators at once. You should also look at the main piping in the basement and see the order in which each radiator branches off. If your cold radiator is last on the line, a larger vent on that radiator might help but even better would be to add venting to the end of the main.
I won't comment on the issue of the boiler needing water every few days, other than to say that's a bad sign.

Timdog

I will take some pictures and post. Pipe positioning in the basement could be a problem for me as I do not know what type of pitch etc. There are two vents in the main piping in the basement and I changed those and no sounds of banging. I know adding water to the boiler is a bad sign, however with the radiators not being in sync I thought just maybe there could be a possible leak coming from the radiator, rather than a small crack in the boiler itself. I understand your point about something in the system giving the steam a path of less resistance, however when I disconnect the radiator and fully expose the pipe, I see steam blowing out full speed ahead. I find it odd that when I connect the Rad and insert the Vent that it becomes cold again and when I remove the vent to the Rad it works. Just odd.

KC_Jones

Well a wide open 1" or 1 1/4" pipe is MUCH less resistance than any vent on your system. The same goes for the vent removed from that radiator. With steam the devil is in the details. As far as pitch with a one pipe parallel flow system (one pipe out and then a return pipe from the end of that run) you want the steam pipes sloping AWAY from the boiler and the return pipe sloping towards the boiler. When you post pictures we can help identify what you have. For each radiator pipe you want those always sloped back towards the main. As far as amount of slope for parallel flow (steam flows with condensate) you want at least 1" in 20' and for counterflow (like rad take offs) you want 1" in 10' these are minimums more doesn't hurt. All radiators should be sloped towards the valve.

Fred

When you remove the vent on that rad and it heats, you really don't know what impact that is having on the stem flow to the other rads. I doubt the problem is at this radiator, especially with what you know. As @KCjones and others have said, make sure the pitch on that radiator tilts back towards the steam inlet pipe and make sure the suppy pipe to that radiator, in the basement is pitched back towards the Main.
I am concerned about having to add water every day. How old is the boiler? Have you looked at your chimney when the boiler is running? Any signs of excess steam coming out of the chimney?
How stable is the water in the sight glass when the boiler is running? A lot of bounce? It may just need a skimming. Oil on the surface of the boiler can do many strange things.
Do you know what the total EDR of the radiators is? What is the Sq. Ft. Steam rating of your boiler? It could be thaat the boiler may be somewhat undersized.
One final note, have your gas company come out and check your gas supply into the house and at the boiler. It is possible that there gas supply/pressure has dropped and not providing enough gas for the boiler burners to fire at capacity. We've seen tht happen a couple times on this site, this year.

Timdog

I have oil fired burner so no gas. There appears to be some bounce and the burner itself is probably too small for the house. With that said, I am really not concerned with getting the house heated really quick, rather I am concerned with the unevenness of the heating radiator to radiator. It appears that this issue has leveled out some when I turned off the valves to the radiators upstairs and let the system run which produced enough heat to the 1st floor radiators. An even flow of steady steam heat is what I am trying to achieve. In my gut I feel there is a combination of a venting issue, blocking of the main return due to condensation not flowing back accordingly. I cant ignore the fact that the radiators upstairs work properly (except for maybe one) which I am testing that happens to be on the same side as the one below it on the 1st floor. Typically from my research, it is the radiators that are furthest from the boiler that don't get enough heat (upstairs radiators) but in my case it is the radiators on the 1st floor that are having the issue. How is it that if there is a blockage or condensation in the pipe, that heat still gets to the upstairs? I will send some pictures and thanks for the help thus far. One more thing, when I connect the cold radiator to the heating pipe via valve and slip on the lock nut, the pipe itself 1-1/4 inch lifts up in order to align itself to the radiator. I was thinking that I should reposition the valve higher on the pipe and then slip on the lock nut to ensure that the pipe itself is not over compensating. I have shims underneath the radiator now, and even tried inserting a book underneath the radiator legs to ensure enough tilt but if the heating pipe itself is being lifted in order to secure the valve to the radiator then maybe I am losing my intended slope /pitch.

KC_Jones

Don't get fixated on geography with respect to a steam system. It is easily possibly to get the upstairs hot and the downstairs cold. It's all about venting. When you are taking pictures it wouldn't be a bad idea to measure your mains for length and size and we could help with proper main venting. I agree it's all about getting balance in the system and that starts with the main venting and goes up from there. Also keep a close eye out for water leakage or steam leakage with respect to your water loss. You will definitely want to keep an eye on this. And as Fred said watch the water in the sight glass for bouncing. In addition is the water in the sight glass and the sight glass clean? It should be fairly clean if it isn't that can indicate dirty water and a need for skimming. Oh also don't get fixated on blockage in pipes...that is really a fairly rare situation and most commonly causes condensate return issues not so much heating issues.

Fred

I sould have remembered you said it was oil, not gas. You do need to check that supply pipe for pitch. If a pipe holds water, the steam condenses when it hit that water and does not make it all the way to the radiator. If it is is a specific radiator run, that doesn't affect how the others heat.
If you suspect the boiler is too small for the house, you need to measure the total of all radiator EDR and compare that to the Boiler sq. ft. steam capacity, as I noted earlier. Steam will take a path of least resistance. It is quite possible going to the second floor offers les resistance that getting to some radiators on the first floor and if there isn't enough steam (because of an undersized boiler) there just isn't enough to go around. Steam doesn't just proportion itself across all paths. It takes the path of least resistance first. If there' none left after that, that's it. It isn't even about heating fast, it's about having enough to go around.
To test the theory, turn the thermostat up about 4 or 5 degrees and let it run. See if all the radiators get hot (including the problem one). If they do, that's a good indication that if the boiler ran for extended period of time, it produces enough steam to feed everything but under normal run cycles, it simply doen't run long enough to make that much steam before the room with the thermostat is satisfied. For most of us, raising the thermostat by 4 or 5 degrees would produce more steam that the radiators could condense and the boiler would start short cycling. I'd be interested in knowing if you boiler does likewise.

Timdog

Hi Fred, I have essentially tested that theory although I did not know that steam takes the path of least resistance. I live in an old historic home (built 1910) and very drafty. Normally heat is set at 67 degrees and very comfortable. It may take a little longer to get the heat to 67 but once there it is comfortable. Now with the 1st floor radiators not heating up as they should (some on the 1st floor would not get hot all the way across, and some would put out heat a rate that was less than another across the room) I had to turn the heat onto 69 degrees. It would set at 69 although I knew I had to turn it up due to radiator failure, and not necessarily to compensate for smaller boiler size. We had a couple of really cold nights 15-25 degrees and the house simply would not heat up most it got was about 63 degrees and the boiler still running trying to produce that heat. Once I balanced out the system by closing the valves upstairs and then opening them back up once the Rads on the 1st floor were pumping heat everything was good except for this one radiator which would not work unless I had the vent out. Once the vent was out and radiator was cranking heat, I turned the thermostat down to 66 as the house was too hot. In my mind I thought I had the problem solved or at least isolated it to this one radiator but wanted to take it further as I knew that a vent was suppose to work there. So here I am trying to fine tune things, adjust, let the system run and see what happens. Also, if the purpose of the radiator vent is to force air out in order to make way for steam and then close so that steam is now warming the radiator, why does my radiator work and allowed to get hot when there is no vent? It is this failure of the vent which makes me think that somewhere in the system there is a venting problem or water lying somewhere. If there is water lying somewhere and not returning to the boiler then this could explain the fact that I have to add water every day or so. Additionally, the trick with the shop vac worked as essentially steam was forced to flow into the radiator or perhaps sucked the air out of the radiator, or made any water presence evaporate so that steam could be let through. Just trying to isolate some variables.

Fred

It is possible that water is setting somewhere but it would have to be in the run to that radiator or very near it. That still doesn't explain why you have to add water daily. That pipe can only hold so much water and when its full, the boiler shouldn't need more water. I know you can suck steam to that radiator, the quetion is (and unless you are able to measure the temp of the other radiators) you don't know if you are stealing steam to those for the short period that you are sucking steam or have the vent completely off of the radiator.
It does sound like the boiler is small or it has a crack/rot hole maybe in the top of it. That is why I asked about the amount of steam going out of the chimney. If there is a leak at the top of the boiler block, steam could be goiing out the chimney and you wouldn't see water leaking anywhere else, but that would explain the need for more water every day.
Is the problem radiator the last feed off of the Main in the basement? How much venting do you have on that Main? It is possible that the steam is pushing air down the main as far as it can and just not getting to that radiator run. Is the Main hot all the way to the end?
I kow a lot of questions but that's the only way to help since we can't be there to see what's what.

KC_Jones

Timdog said:

Also, if the purpose of the radiator vent is to force air out in order to make way for steam and then close so that steam is now warming the radiator, why does my radiator work and allowed to get hot when there is no vent?

I think you are thinking of it wrong. Functionally taking the vent out does exactly what the vent is doing (letting air out) just at a greater rate. The vent doesn't force air out the steam does. If the steam finds a path of less resistance it pushes that air out instead of the air in the rad you have having issues. Again many times a radiator not heating is the fault of something else in the system not that particular radiator. As I stated earlier when it comes to venting you have to start at the bottom which is the main vents. I wouldn't even think about radiator vents until your main venting is confirmed good. Another thing to look out for with respect to the water usage is failed vents...failed open. You should have almost zero steam coming out of the vents in the basement and on the rads. They shouldn't spit blow steam nothing, just quietly vent the air. I agree with Fred you should start looking around for the cause of your water usage. If you have a leak (not at the boiler) it will kill the boiler fairly quickly. If the boiler is leaking you need to start planning a replacement.

Timdog

Fred/KC, attached are some pictures. The Pipe is hot all the way to the end and this is why I am having a hard time understanding why the heat is not making its way a few more inches/feet to the radiator. I will get you some more clearer pictures of the whole piping but, the pics attached reflect that portion of the piping that is feeding the 1st floor problem radiator. Any issues that you can observe?

KC_Jones

The first thing I can tell you for sure is that boiler is piped wrong...massively wrong and is definitely shooting water up into your system. Not sure which issues this is causing, but it isn't good. I am still looking at the pictures.

Timdog

Thanks KC, with the vents out, I guess my question would be then how come the radiator remains hot. I would think that the steam would also blow out the vent hole. I do not see any steam coming from the radiators or through the vent hole. I replaced the main vents with new ones a short while ago. I will take those out and see if the radiator gets hot. I agree that the radiator in and of itself is not the problem, however the symptoms associated with this radiator could be the underlying problem and that's why I am trying to see what works and what doesn't.

Fred

I see some significant issues:
1. the boiler is piped all wrong. No Header, no Hartford loop, looks like the 1 riser, out of the boiler goes up and then the main branches off in a couple directions. There is no way to get even steam disstribution with that set up.
2. I see what looks like where condensation runs down the flue pipe, from the elbow joint down to the boiler. That suggests to me that excessive moisture (steam is going up the chimney. Check the top of the boiler block for a leak.
3. On one of you pictures, where the radiator run goes through the floor, I see signs of aa lot of moisture staning on the wood. There is obviously a leak somewhere in that area around that pipe or the valve above the floor.
4. There definitely is not enough venting on the Mains. After you investigate the other issues, you need to build an Antler and put multiple Gorton #2's on there. I'd start with at least 2 Gorton 2's on each Main and add more if needed but I think you need to give the other issues priority.

KC_Jones

Once a rad gets steam hot it will stay that way for a LONG time even with the boiler off. Don't try and judge what that radiator is doing by it's temp. Once it's hot it will stay like that and it might not be getting any more steam. Again I think you are thinking about it wrong if I am understanding your logic.

KC_Jones

Where are you located? Honestly we are more than willing to help and offer advice, but you have what appears to be a bunch of issues in your system and it might be a good idea to get a good pro in there and at least give you an evaluation. If you tell us where you live we may be able to recommend someone. Working on venting is almost wasteful from what I can see. You have the water issue and the horrible piping issue. I doubt (can't promise) any amount of venting tweaks will get it working correctly. @Fred I also don't see an equalizer so any water or condensate is going into the system not back to the boiler.

Fred

KC_Jones said:

Where are you located? Honestly we are more than willing to help and offer advice, but you have what appears to be a bunch of issues in your system and it might be a good idea to get a good pro in there and at least give you an evaluation. If you tell us where you live we may be able to recommend someone. Working on venting is almost wasteful from what I can see. You have the water issue and the horrible piping issue. I doubt (can't promise) any amount of venting tweaks will get it working correctly. @Fred I also don't see an equalizer so any water or condensate is going into the system not back to the boiler.

Your're right, there is no equalizer either. My goodness!

Timdog

Fred, when I took off the rad, I didn't put it back on correctly and it leaked for a while which is why you see the flooring the way it is. As of now when I wipe a paper towel around the locking nut, or around valve stem, there is no leak or moisture and paper towel is bone dry. I never seen condensation coming from the flue pipe, but I will give it a check and open the top of the boiler. I had to clean this boiler a couple of times recently because of a dirty nozzle and rebuilt the combustion chamber and didn't notice any water. In either event the heat still flows however just not to this particular section of this radiator. That leaves the piping issue at the boiler itself but again if piping is wrong wouldn't all the other radiators be failing?? Well maybe they all are to a certain degree if this is the root cause just not sure why.

Timdog

I am located in Pawtucket RI. Any help that you are able to give me in the form of knowledge is well worth it, as I suspect some guys out there would just say I need a whole new system as they don't understand how steam works. Its a shame because the steam works great, nice heat and quite as a mouse. I was planning on converting to gas, however If I cant figure what is wrong with the piping etc, then I guess I will switch to hot water baseboard.

What is an equalizer?

Thanks

Fred

an equalizer is a pipe that runs from the end of a Heade (which is missing on your system) that lets any water that might get into the header and any water droplets that might remain in the steam drain back to the boiler. It also equalizes the pressure at the near boiler and minimizes the water that can back out of the boiler and into the returns.

KC_Jones

Timdog said:

If I cant figure what is wrong with the piping etc, then I guess I will switch to hot water baseboard.

What is an equalizer?

Thanks

Don't do it. That's like buying a new car because it needs new tires...and I am not exaggerating. RI...doesn't look like any of the "steam men" are in RI, but some do travel. Maybe some one will see this and chime in if they travel that far. Looks like this one is the closest (of the ones I see on here regularly), but still like 85 miles away. That doesn't necessarily mean they won't go that far....though obviously I can not speak for them.

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating

Timdog

Well I thank you guys for all of your help. You both are good men for offering me your insight.

Fred

The cost to rip piping out and configure it for hot water, coupled with the fact that any reputable installer will likely tell you still will need to replace that boiler is far more expensive than correcting the steam system, even if it means a new boiler, rigth sized for the house and exsisting radiator EDR. Besides that, all the piping and radiators will have to be very, very tight so as not to leak. In that respect, steam is a bit more forgiving.

BobC

If you can't find any signs of a leak and you are going through water, it has to be going into the firebox or is evaporating as it dribbles on the not cast iron. Peel off the shell and give it a good hard look. Then overfill the boiler and let it sit for several hours, if there are no leaks outside then look into the firebox to look for signs of water. If the boiler does have a leak you can't produce as much steam as you used to and may have trouble supplying the system with steam.

Make a list of your radiators with their size and the vents on them (setting of the vent if it's adjustable). Think about putting in large main vents and then venting the radiators relatively slowly, good adjustable vents will make this easier.

Bob

KC_Jones

Timdog said:

Well I thank you guys for all of your help. You both are good men for offering me your insight.

We are always glad to help. I think BobC laid out a good plan of attack to assess your whole system. Then you can accurately develop a plan of attack for getting it straightened out. I would definitely put on that list a boiler re-pipe....once you get a good feel for the condition of the boiler.

Timdog

Thanks Bob. I figured the water must be from a small crack in the firebox and I could use some JB weld as a band aid until I get another boiler. I also thought it could be something with water not getting back into the boiler or some sort of steam leakage. The boiler is firing and producing heat at around 2 PSI, just not getting heat to this one radiator and maybe lower heat than usual at 1 other on the 1st floor which I think I have fixed already. Basically in my opinion the boiler is making plenty of steam enough to go to all of the radiator, but not traveling correctly. I will look into the piping aspect of this next

Thanks for your thoughts.

Fred

If the boiler is holding pressure at 2PSI, then it most likely does not have a leak in it. When a boiler has a leak in it the pressure is typically 0. You may have dodged a bullet and just need to have some repiping done. keep us posted!

Timdog

Thanks will do

KC_Jones

The bad piping can cause more issues than you may realize. With all the water I am sure that is being sent into the system it could be causing all kinds of issues and causing that rad not to heat. Water in the piping can wreak havoc. Dry steam is your friend. Get your system evaluated take notes measure all the rads compare that to the boiler you have installed...it's all a process. If you need any more assistance feel free to ask. I would also suggest stopping in the store and buying "We Got Steam Heat" and "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" great books with TONS of good information. A large majority if not all of us have them. Good info, well written, easy to read. Dan truly has a way with words.

nicholas bonham-carter

Do the overfill test soon, and that will tell you if the boiler has a leak. Fill it after cooling down a bit to well above the boiler top. Any leaks will be seen in the firebox in an hour or two.--NBC