the best staple up solution

Sol Hydronics

wow things have changed since the last time I was here. I have a job that I must do staple up and have no choice due to windows hitting the floor and door restrictions. $ is not a problem and I would like to think I was offering the owner the best possible system. Yes I have done a number of systems staple up and other but it seems no one can agree on the best. Thanks for your ideas ahead of time,. mike

Snowmelt

Need heat loss calculation. Then put climate plates up. Either viega, wirlsbo or watt onix.

Rich_49

http://radiantengineering.com/productsthermofin

Forget Watts Onix , don't even bother . Terrible tubing .

Sol Hydronics

thanks and the problem is people say suspend the tube with 1" air gap and people say plates and plates make noise and there are so many ways to do it. What is the latest and greatest. Heat loss is being worked out now and there will be plenty of tube to handle the job but do i foil face insulate with ridged or does that matter anymore. There are many plates out now and who's the best? 4 loop pr bay or 2 . ect

Sol Hydronics

I have used the watts onix a long time ago and its still working and was easy to install but on this job i dont think i will go there. I have also suspended with good results. I was just looking to see what all the other pros would do with the products today.

Sol Hydronics

hey snowmelt plate vs onix is 2 different installs

Gordy

Plates plates, and extruded plates as in Rich's link. Conduction is king. Tube to plate, and plate to floor. Nothing has changed there.

Sol Hydronics

who's plates are the best if this is the way to go

Rich_49

radiant engineering or Uponor would be best in my opinion . No air gap , insulation right up tight to the subfloor . suspended requires higher temps to work properly . Air gap equates to a small room in your house thats heated that you can never go in , Why do it ? 1" space between ends of plates and fill all the holes with screws , it won't make noise , you probably heard noise from some heat emission plate in the past but not with extruded .

hot_rod

It really depends on the heat load in each room. There certainly are cases where staple tube or UltraFin products works well.

Some would argue those methods are best for loads under 20 BTU/sq. ft.

Many have learned loads above high 20's (btu/sq.ft.) are the limit for any radiant floor, regardless of the installation method.

For residential systems keep the max. floor surface below 85, some say 82°.

Keep in mind the floor coverings, carpet, even throw rugs will factor in. Also the final furnishings in the room. Furniture, like over stuffed chairs and couches the do not allow air circulation, and built in cabinetry lowers the heat flux.

No doubt a conductive heat transfer plate, properly installed, is one of the best methods, as are some of the over the top methods like WarmBoard.
Nothing beats a solid sheet of aluminum right below the final floor covering for powerful heat transfer.

Warm board with and without carpet.

Tinman

@ Rich - I agree completely. I wish Radiant Engineering U-Fin and C-Fin were offered by our local supply houses. Porter Pipe? Are you listening? : )
@ Hot Rod - If money truly isn't an option, Warmboard is as good as it gets.

Sol Hydronics

the a frame house is in the redwoods with little sun and has windows all the way to the floor. this is a retrofit job and the floors can not be raised due to window and sliding doors. i don't like staple up jobs but with a full 7' basement there is lots of room thank god to work. i have done many radiant jobs and what i am looking for is just the best method for a quite staple up product. 900 sq ft and in central california just inland from the coast. thanks

Sol Hydronics

and yes warm board is great if it was new construction

Gordy

There is warmboard r . R standing for remodel.

Tinman

I find the biggest obstacle of using extruded plates on a remodel is the thousands (?) of nails penetrating the subfloor. Having lots of room to work makes it easier using the right grinder and having the ability to roll around on something if you choose.

hot_rod

Sol Hydronics said:

the a frame house is in the redwoods with little sun and has windows all the way to the floor. this is a retrofit job and the floors can not be raised due to window and sliding doors. i don't like staple up jobs but with a full 7' basement there is lots of room thank god to work. i have done many radiant jobs and what i am looking for is just the best method for a quite staple up product. 900 sq ft and in central california just inland from the coast. thanks

If the loads are low, and you can seal al the joist bays tightly, you may consider UltraFin. The few jobs I used it on didn't require very high temperatures, same loop as the transfer plates on this job. I used two loops per joist bay, staggered the UF from one tube to the other.

Here is a job where I used 8 feet of transfer plate then Ultra Fin as I moved away from the exterior wall, notice then output difference.

I took this shot to show the builder how badly the wall bottom plate detail was. A brand new home. This was before base trim was installed, but still!

An often overlooked seal in new construction is the bottom plate.

Sol Hydronics

what about the watts panels

hot_rod

the graphite type? I have not tried them with the latest attachment, and tube grip system that they improved. The key is keeping the entire surface area of the plate touching.

SWEI

We are seeing good performance from the first retrofit where we tried FlexPlates. No possible way to shoehorn aluminum plates in those joist bays with all the wiring up there (lots of can lights in 1st floor ceiling.) Took a boatload of staples and some re-work to get and keep full contact with the subfloor.

Extruded aluminum plates are easier (and less expensive) for new construction, especially if you can use the 8-footers.

Sol Hydronics

ok so it looks like aluminum plates r what will be installed.. Now they want to spray foam the bays. Any problems with that and yes some tube will be suspended due to blocks, holes, ect? Spray foam does take care of the perimeter insulation issues i think. And thanks for all the input.

Gordy

Make sure plates are SECURE so the foam does not expand between the plates and sub floor. Still have not seen any definitive evidence for, or against interactions with pex. So far no reports to the negative.

hot_rod

Maybe check with the tube manufacturer to get their blessing on the spray foam.

Bob Bona_4

Been about 10 years since the foam vs. Pex issue has been raised. Haven't seen or heard of any issues.

Extruded plates, tight to bottom of subfloor. Insulate right around the whole shebang, foam or batt.

Rich_49

If you use Uponor the SPF should be applied in 1" lifts which should be done anyway since the risk of combustion of the materials is great when too much heat is built up deep inside the application . lokk up Larry Janesky mansion fire in Connecticut . Uponor gives it's blessing to this application . You may want to confirm but as of 2 months ago this was the case .

Bob Bona_4

Interesting. I see Janesky on the local cable ads all the time. Most current info I could find was he dimisses the spontaneous combustion theory. To be continued I guess. That said, I've been involved in many many foam jobs both closed and open cell, one spray app, 10" maybe?
No fires I have heard of. Wonder how this plays out.

mars_6

Mike the only system that is under floor that I will offer to my customers that must have it is a extruded aluminum heat transfer plate with a Pex, Al Pex tubing installed in the plates. Call me old fashion but this system has worked for me for years and aside from trimming thousands of nails on the sub floor it just sucks , the system will give you BTUH per SQ FT you need. Just My 2 cents. Matt

RobG

I think it was said above but I put plastic over the tubing prior to spay foaming. Never had a problem.

Paul Pollets

Extruded plates are by far the best option. I use 3/8" tubing for the application, which is effortless compared to 1/2". Heat loss calcs are required to confirm load and loop lengths. I'm not a fan of isocyenene sprayed over the application when R30 batts allow future access.

Rich_49

I don't disagree with Paul . If lowering ACH is what you're after though nothing will do it like foams . It will also lower the heat load

Gordy

I also agree. Foam rim joist area, and fiberglass bays.

It sorta depends what's,above. Laundry room bathrooms hav potential for discharge washer hoses discharging out of the sink or box, and toilers over flowing.

That could make for an ugly mold wood decay issue with spray foam.

Roy_2

Check out REHAU's plates. They have a version which saves tremendous amounts of time - 1 plate 4' long holds the tube in both directions - very slick - been out 3-4 years. The idea of covering the PEx with plastic before foaming is good covers a lot of potential issues - just try the foam out on a piece of the plastic -

Roy

Gordy

Those are a little lighter gauge than good extruded plates. If I'm laying on my back in a crawl space I would rather push tubing in straight up than in sideways. Let alone twice in one plate.