Honeywell TRV - One Pipe - Gargling/ Spitting Water from Air Vent

pdud

Hi Heating Help,

I’ve learnt a lot reading the related topics on this but would love some additional guidance.

We recently installed TRVs, 1 Honeywell T100C and 1 Honeywell T100F with a V204 valve, on a one pipe steam system in a condo serving 15 other families.

The valves seem to be controlling the temperature well but they spit up a little bit of water through the included Honeywell air vents.

They never spit water on our previous non TRV setup and the radiators are angled correctly. One radiator had a No 1 Vent Rite and the other a VariValve.

I tried a No 1 Vent Rite on the radiator that previously had it with the vent slightly restricted and it gargles water, not spitting it out like before. The VariValve spat out a lot of water.

Other threads have mentioned the Gorton No. 5 could be a good option.

Other threads have mentioned vacuum breakers. From my understanding they will help with the flow of the condensate back to the boiler, perhaps the source of the gargling water in the radiator vents?

If a vacuum breaker is needed I am struggling to find one that I can add to my existing Honeywell setup. I see danfoss and Macon both have valves that include the vacuum breaker but I’ve invested a lot in Honeywell and would ideally make them work.

1. Is the vacuum breaker my problem?
2. Where can I find a vacuum breaker to add to my Honeywell setup?

Thank you,
Phil

nicholas bonham-carter

Is the whole building now equipped with these TRV's? Was everyone too hot at times? Rather than putting band-aid TRV's on everything, why not spend a little time in getting the system to work properly? All radiators should be capable of heating evenly, and when the building was built, this was no doubt the case. Something along the way has been allowed to fall into disrepair, causing some parts of the building to heat up more quickly than others. Perhaps as a result, the temperature settings have been increased to compensate for this, and your apartment is roasting as a result.
TRV's are an acceptable solution for over radiation in a few areas of a large system, but do need a vacuum breaker, as you have found out. I think you would have grounds to return them as they probably cannot be made to work.--NBC

pdud

Thanks for the reply Nicholas!

It is just our condo that has TRVs as far as I know. I am not sure others in the building were too hot. I don’t have control over the boiler etc.

It was my goal to keep a fairly consistent temperature around different rooms, previously our rooms could rise to ~82F and we covered them with blankets.

The Honeywell TRV’s do seem to control the temperature a lot better, now ~70F, we just have the issue now of the spitting vents. Will the vacuum breakers which other manufacturers have fitted to their TRV’s stop this issue or can I purchase a vacuum breaker that I can add onto the TRV with a tee?

David Nadle

TRVs need a vacuum breaker but they also need a break. If your building's boiler runs for a long time without any period of vacuum or atmospheric pressure the TRVs may not work well.

Honeywell expects vacuum breakers to be installed on the risers. Not sure how you can accomplish that. You could try to tee in a 1/8" vacuum breaker on the vent side if you have space, but those run about $60 each. You'd be most of the way towards replacing the Honeywell parts with Danfoss.

If I were you I would switch to Danfoss and try to unload the Honeywell parts on eBay.

pdud

Thanks for the reply David

The boiler does have a break, I don’t know if it does go into vacuum or atmospheric pressure though. In hindsight it does seem that the Danfoss models may have been better.

What is causing the air vent to spit out water? Are the radiators filling up with water/condensate?

I take it that air vents are not designed to stop water - just vent air?

JUGHNE

Crazy Idea: if you could remove an 1/8" plug on the valve end of rad and install one of your existing angle rad vents there. It would close quickly when steam comes up and might open when boiler cycles off and break the vacumn in rad. Of course the old plug might seem impossible to remove but drill & retapping not a major issue for 1/8".

Fred

Can'

JUGHNE said:

Crazy Idea: if you could remove an 1/8" plug on the valve end of rad and install one of your existing angle rad vents there. It would close quickly when steam comes up and might open when boiler cycles off and break the vacumn in rad. Of course the old plug might seem impossible to remove but drill & retapping not a major issue for 1/8".

That would be the hottest end of the radiator and probably be the last thing to open when the boiler shut down. IMHO

JUGHNE

Yep, crazy, I just wanted someone to tell me it worked before I went up 3 stories of schoolhouse steps with drill & tap; however I hope to still try it and might do so.m Will post if successful. Thanks

pdud

A little too experimental for my linking – no plugs and don’t want to start drilling. Just a homeowner with no experience with steam. haha.

Still would love some answers to my newbie questions.

What is causing the air vent to spit out water? Are the radiators filling up with water/condensate?

I take it that air vents are not designed to stop water - just vent air?

JUGHNE

When does the water spit out of the vent? And is the vent hot or cold? At the end of the heating cycle or when the next steam up starts. I'm assuming it might be obvious in the condo when this cycle happens.

Fred

pdud said:

A little too experimental for my linking – no plugs and don’t want to start drilling. Just a homeowner with no experience with steam. haha.

Still would love some answers to my newbie questions.

What is causing the air vent to spit out water? Are the radiators filling up with water/condensate?

I take it that air vents are not designed to stop water - just vent air?

Some vents are prone to spitting and most on here avoid some of those. I think Vari-vent has a reputattion for spitting. Other causes include wet steam from the boiler ( Near boiler piping is not correct), High operating pressure (Most steam boilers should run at a max pressure of about 1.5 PSI, dirty (oily) water in the boiler, and a radiator that is not pitched towards the drain (if a 1 pipe system, pitch should be back towards the Steam inlet pipe, if a 2 pipe system, vent should be pitched towards the pipe at the end opposite the inlet valve).
Will a vacuum cause a vent to spit? Well, I get a small vacuum when my boiler runs for an extented period or when is has short cycled a couple times and I have not has a problem with spitting vents. So I'd have to say vacuum is not the culprit.
Try a Gorton radiator vent or a Hoffman vent on that radiator.
You do need a vacuum breaker though. Danfoss TVR is your best bet.
EDIT: One other comment, make sure whatever vent you use that it is upright. Ventss that are slanted to one side or the other don't close like they should

KC_Jones

Couldn't the lack of vacuum breaker be part of the problem? Basically on that TRV once it's closed on temp thats it, closed solid nothing gets through. Say on a call for heat (TRV open) it stays open until steam hits the vent. During that time the TRV is satisfied and closes. Now whatever tiny amount of steam was there is condensed and trapped. On the next call for heat the TRV opens, but since air is coming at it the water doesn't drain back and the cycle repeats itself. After a while there could be enough water that the call for heat pushes the water out of the vent. I only throw this out there because the OP states that they had no spitting prior to the TRV installation. No matter what still need some sort of vacuum breaker on that TRV. On a side note I think Honeywell needs to draw much more attention to that situation. They have a cheaper TRV then the competition, but aren't supplying as much and aren't clear to customers about the vacuum breaker being needed. This isn't the first time I have seen people posting about the Honeywell and no vacuum breaker.

Fred

@KC_ Jones, that sounds plausable. One way to test that theory is to take the TRV off and put the vent back in the radiator and see if it still spits.

pdud

Thanks @KC_Jones‌ and @Fred‌

Sounds like either way I certainly need a vacuum breaker.

I think even with my limited knowdledge I'd agree with you that the vari-valve are prone to spitting. I've read the same in my research.

@KC_Jones‌ is correct, no spitting prior to the installation. It is only with the TRV's it will spit. Same air vents.

It sounds like a shame that I've gone the Honeywell route and wish I had come across this site sooner. They even are quite a bit more expensive than the Danfoss units I've seen.

Would a vacuum breaker attached in a tee before the TRV work? Any places I can buy online (I can't seem to find any)?

A previous poster mentioned I'd be looking at $60 a vacuum breaker (need 3) and might be better going back to Danfoss. While its a lot it would be even more to switch to a Danfoss valve and Danfoss thermostatic unit. Seeing if I can savior these Honeywell units before switching.

Thanks again!

Fred

Go to this site: http://www.supplyhouse.com/Danfoss-013G0140-Thermostatic-Rad-Valve-w-Vac-Breaker-1-Pipe-Steam-5551000-p?utm_source=shopzillaCSE&utm_ad_content=013G0140
You can get thee DanFoss TRV with breaker for a little less than the breaker price you quoted in your last post. (We aren't suppose to discuss pricing on this site)

ChrisJ

I don't understand why Honeywell's TRVs don't have vacuum breakers. Sounds like a defective product, no?

The Danfoss TRV uses it's vacuum breaker to drain water out of the valve assembly. Any time the TRV is shut and a slight vacuum is pulled it sucks water out of the valve and the vent. If the TRV is open, it just drains the normal way. There is also a large plug you can remove to clean the vacuum breaker out if it ever gets clogged.

I would say ditch the Honeywells and buy the Danfoss ones Fred recommended. The Danfoss TRVs actually work but keep in mind to vent them fairly slow.

I use a Gorton #6 on one of mine and a #4 on the other. If you go too fast you will heat faster than the TRV and close and possibly overheat. It also makes it more likely to cause spitting.

Fred

@Chrisj, I think Honeywell TRV's are designed for 2 pipe systems.

pdud

Thanks again for the replies! Lots of useful information. Thanks for the recommendations on the Gorton's.

Yea the Danfoss TRV is cheaper than the vacuum breakers but I also need a thermostatic head for each one like the Danfoss RA2000, making it more money. Unless my Honeywell dial will fit on the Danfoss TRV - which I assume it would not.

It looks like Macon OPSK has a vacuum breaker attached in its valve (link to image below).

http://media.statesupply.com/catalog/product/cache/1/image/600x/88d2a0f3c5b0e8977708365d0e01ccfa/m/v/mv1200.jpg

Do you think buying one of these and attach it in my Honeywell setup perhaps with a tee would resolve the spitting issue? or does it need to be built into the valve?

Is there another vacuum breaker I could attach to the Honeywell setup as it's become evident that I need one?

@Fred‌ Honeywell's one pipe steam TRV that doesn't include a vacuum breaker is part number V2042HSL10. Depending on which docs you read it does appear to require the vacuum breaker either on the radiator or supply piping.

David Nadle

Grainger stocks a 1/8" vacuum breaker, but I wouldn't go that route. Good money after bad and all that.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I do want to clarify something about "discussing pricing." I certainly respect that request, but does it really apply to small parts where pricing is readily available online?

ChrisJ

David Nadle said:

Grainger stocks a 1/8" vacuum breaker, but I wouldn't go that route. Good money after bad and all that.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I do want to clarify something about "discussing pricing." I certainly respect that request, but does it really apply to small parts where pricing is readily available online?

I asked Dan about this and he asks that absolutely no pricing is discussed.

ChrisJ

In my opinion, a separate vacuum breaker isn't going to cut it. Like I said, the vacuum breaker in the Danfoss TRV is set up to pull water out of the valve. An external one would not provide this function.

Fred

pdud said:

Thanks again for the replies! Lots of useful information. Thanks for the recommendations on the Gorton's.

Yea the Danfoss TRV is cheaper than the vacuum breakers but I also need a thermostatic head for each one like the Danfoss RA2000, making it more money. Unless my Honeywell dial will fit on the Danfoss TRV - which I assume it would not.

It looks like Macon OPSK has a vacuum breaker attached in its valve (link to image below).

http://media.statesupply.com/catalog/product/cache/1/image/600x/88d2a0f3c5b0e8977708365d0e01ccfa/m/v/mv1200.jpg

Do you think buying one of these and attach it in my Honeywell setup perhaps with a tee would resolve the spitting issue? or does it need to be built into the valve?

Is there another vacuum breaker I could attach to the Honeywell setup as it's become evident that I need one?

@Fred‌ Honeywell's one pipe steam TRV that doesn't include a vacuum breaker is part number V2042HSL10. Depending on which docs you read it does appear to require the vacuum breaker either on the radiator or supply piping.

I'm still going to suggest the Danfoss TRV. You are going to spend more money trying to save your Honeywell investment and end up in the same situation.

pdud

Sounds like it's time to switch to a Danfoss setup.

Thank you very much for the help!