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Switching out steam boiler

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  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,739
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    Couple of comments. If he is leaving the sizing up to you I would honestly be a bit scared. You need to spell out very specifically how this thing gets piped. Steam is very sensitive to near boiler piping and must be done correctly or you could end up miserable. If the contractor doesn't know something as simple as sizing the boiler correctly then it's hard to imagine they understand piping one correctly. Have they written up a contract with the specifics of the install? Have they pulled a permit? Another thing is the overfilling situation. Obviously your contractor doesn't know why it is doing that. If it is something on the boiler fill and he doesn't fix it you will just end up with the problem all over again. As far as the pics you posted, comparing a water boiler install to steam is apples and oranges it fairly meaningless. While I can't comment on function of that install I can say the work looks a bit on the sloppy side to me.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
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    We do not have a contract but he did tell me he will have to repipe everything as my curtain set up is a mess. He has done multiple install and has done a lot of work in my house in the past which is why i'm using him.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,739
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    CT1988 said:

    he will have to repipe everything as my curtain set up is a mess.

    Curtain? And re piping is fairly standard...it's how he repipes that matters. If I may be blunt I think it's extraordinarily foolish to let someone do work on your house without a contract. This website is filled with garbage steam boiler installs done by people that have "done multiple installs". I don't know this person nor seen any of their work, but the warning signs are all there from the information you are giving us.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
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    *sorry .. typo (current)
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
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    Don't mean to come down on him...usually steam experts aren't generally contracting other stuff, but maybe this is his side passion. Please have him give you GOOD pics of his steam installs. I understand you want a new boiler anyway, but the overfill problem doesns't seem to come from the boiler. Why can't he even identify the problem and fix it. I basically installed my own boilers, and it's no cake walk. How can he install it properly if he can't fix the over-fill? He may have done numerous installs, but that doesn't mean they were correct. Please post pics of his STEAM installs.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
    KC_Jones
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
    edited February 2015
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    I thought the overfilled was due to the boiler as my old boiler doesn't have an autofeed. To his credit, he didn't really diagnosis the situation as it was my choice to do a new install. I will def be next to him as he does the install. If it's not the boiler, then could it be from the convectors? That I can't really change (only the valves).
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
    edited February 2015
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    The water has to be coming from somewhere; it's either a hw coil, which you don't have, or the fill valve. Even without an autofeed there has to be a fill valve...and I suspect it's leaking. I'm worried about this install. You need to fix the current problem and deal with a new boiler at the end of the season. The boiler itself is not leaking or it wouldn't be overfilling. That's the usual reason people replace their boilers...they're shot.

    Could you post a schematic of the install plan? You don't know how bad a bad install can be until you've lived with one or read ALL the posts on this site. Now is the time to make sure it's what you need. I'm sure your wife won't be any happier next year with high bills, banging, clanging or any of the other horrors that can happen.The manual is a minimum requirement and even some "professionals" can't seem to manage that.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    edited February 2015
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    CT1988 said:

    I thought the overfilled was due to the boiler as my old boiler doesn't have an autofeed. To his credit, he didn't really diagnosis the situation as it was my choice to do a new install. I will def be next to him as he does the install. If it's not the boiler, then could it be from the convectors? That I can't really change (only the valves).

    You know you could probably fix that "overfill" problem for a lot less than what a new boiler costs right? And if he uses the same fill valve as what you have now you'll still have an overfill problem. :D

    This isn't really the time of the year you want to be "willingly" replacing a boiler.
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
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    not great pics but that's all i have on my phone.

    imageimage
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
    edited February 2015
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    found one more. he's removing the old heater and putting the one one there.

  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,739
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    The water is coming from the feed to the boiler. The boiler or the convectors don't make water. It is coming from the water feed, if you have no autofeeder then it's a bad valve. It's pretty simple.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
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    I was going to replace all the valves as well. Thanks for confirming that.
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
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    Just for my education, how does a bad valve cause the over-filled. I let out 11 buckets of water last night after another leaked.
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
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    CT1988 said:

    Just for my education, how does a bad valve cause the over-filled. I let out 11 buckets of water last night after another leaked.

    The valve leaks... think of a dripping faucet... but worse. Constant water flow leads to flooded boiler.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,739
    edited February 2015
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    The water in the boiler comes form your house water supply. The only way water gets into the boiler is through this supply. That pipe has a valve on it that should be closed unless you open it to let water in. That valve is most likely bad and leaking water past the seal. That is how the boiler is filling up. If you change that valve and any valve on that line your problem will probably be solved for the price of the valve and installation. If the guy you are thinking about using to replace the boiler can not figure that out...seriously I wouldn't let him work on my house if he was doing it for free. Unless there is some piece of this puzzle I am missing or you haven't mentioned that seems like what your situation is. It doesn't sound like you have a boiler problem at all....not at the moment anyway.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
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    Gotcya. That make sense. I do have to let water in when it's low and there's an hour glass looking tube that I rely on to check the water level. The strange thing is, i check that every day and its no where near full and then suddenly it overfills. That's the puzzling part of how I end up with so much water. If it's leaking, then I would expect a progression in the water level but I don't. It's either low or it's overfilled.
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    edited February 2015
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    CT1988 said:

    Gotcya. That make sense. I do have to let water in when it's low and there's an hour glass looking tube that I rely on to check the water level. The strange thing is, i check that every day and its no where near full and then suddenly it overfills. That's the puzzling part of how I end up with so much water. If it's leaking, then I would expect a progression in the water level but I don't. It's either low or it's overfilled.

    You aren't fully shutting the gate valve closed when you fill the boiler. It might feel closed, but it's not. Old gate valves can get mineral deposits/rust on the gate and the seat ring and not seal properly. Replace the gate valve with a ball valve.

  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,739
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    Is someone messing with the valve? Kids? Are you forgetting to close it when you do add water (I've done that)? That is the ONLY way for water to get into the boiler. Now how often have you been adding water?
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
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    I make sure i shut it pretty tight. I'm the only one that touche that. the previous owner told me to let out some water every day or two and add some back in (he drew a line on the hour-glass meter) so I know how much to fill it. I always fill it a tad below that before i shut off the value. I check the water level few times a day and it's fine, except on the 2x in the last month when I had an overfilled which caused the valves in my convector to leaked water which caused water damaged in my ceiling / walls as the water flowed down from the 2nd floor. (which is why wife wanted to change the boiler asap).
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,478
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    If you think the feed valve is leaking, an easy test is to feel the pipe about 6" before and after the valve. At this time of year if they are both really cold there is water flowing through the valve and it has to be replaced.

    If the level in the sight glass moves around a lot when the boiler is making steam, the boiler water probably has some oils in it and the boiler needs to be skimmed.

    If the level in the sight glass sometimes increases a little while after going through a steam cycle you might have a partially blocked return pipe that is not letting the condensed steam get back to the boiler in a reasonable time.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
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    BobC said:

    If you think the feed valve is leaking, an easy test is to feel the pipe about 6" before and after the valve. At this time of year if they are both really cold there is water flowing through the valve and it has to be replaced.

    If the level in the sight glass moves around a lot when the boiler is making steam, the boiler water probably has some oils in it and the boiler needs to be skimmed.

    If the level in the sight glass sometimes increases a little while after going through a steam cycle you might have a partially blocked return pipe that is not letting the condensed steam get back to the boiler in a reasonable time.
    Bob

    The level in the sight glass does move around a lot when the boiler is making steam.

    If there is a blocked on the return pipe, is there a way to test it. This seems like a much bigger issue even if i put a new boiler.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,739
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    If you have a blocked return you will still have a blocked return on new boiler and won't have fixed anything. You could start simple and feel the return pipes. Wait until a cycle finishes and then feel the return pipes for heat. start at the end of main and feel the return pipe if you come across a drastic temperature change or find completely cold piping that is a start. I think you should regroup a bit and figure out what is going on before you get into replacing the whole boiler. I am really thinking you need to consider getting a steam expert in there. Where are you located? We may be able to recommend someone.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
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    CT1988 said:

    BobC said:

    If you think the feed valve is leaking, an easy test is to feel the pipe about 6" before and after the valve. At this time of year if they are both really cold there is water flowing through the valve and it has to be replaced.

    If the level in the sight glass moves around a lot when the boiler is making steam, the boiler water probably has some oils in it and the boiler needs to be skimmed.

    If the level in the sight glass sometimes increases a little while after going through a steam cycle you might have a partially blocked return pipe that is not letting the condensed steam get back to the boiler in a reasonable time.
    Bob

    The level in the sight glass does move around a lot when the boiler is making steam.

    If there is a blocked on the return pipe, is there a way to test it. This seems like a much bigger issue even if i put a new boiler.
    You can solve all this by just checking the fill valve. Check the easy things first. A leaking manual fill valve, especially a very old gate valve is not something out of the ordinary. If there's a union after the fill valve, it's not that hard to check if it's leaking. You might have to drop the level of the water in the boiler to below the union since I doubt there's even a check valve on the feed line. open the union and throw a bucket under there and see how long it takes to fill the bucket.

    Start at the fill valve. If that's not it we can troubleshoot further.

  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
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    i live in brooklyn
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
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    of note, i do noticed a leaked in the water valve when i add water. when i turn on the value, water is dripping to the floor. But once i shut the value, water stops dripping.
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
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    also, from the last overfilled to last night is appx 3 weeks apart. In between when I monitor the water site, I noticed it was filled to the top and on a few occasions but I only have to let out a bucket or so of water. This prob happened 2x.
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
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    CT1988 said:

    of note, i do noticed a leaked in the water valve when i add water. when i turn on the value, water is dripping to the floor. But once i shut the value, water stops dripping.

    that's just the stem packing leaking.

  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
    edited February 2015
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    KC_Jones said:

    I am really thinking you need to consider getting a steam expert in there. Where are you located? We may be able to recommend someone.

    We/ve already recommended Jstar and JonnyNY.

    Those gate valves can be deceptive that way. If you have a separate HW heater, which you say you do, only one thing can be causing the overfill: the valve. I've replaced three in my house this year that were causing problems. Sure they seemed like they shut, but every time you use it, it's destroying a bit of the ancient gasket and washer or moved them slightly. That stuff can get in you house plumbing and cause no end of problems. I was able to repair mine, but for you I think a new one is in order. The problem will only become more frequent.
    I'd worry about any slow returns later as that isn't affecting you overfill problem since you don't have an autofill. Getting a new boiler is like getting a new car because your driveway is cracked. It'll still be cracked with a new one.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
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    i checked the return pipe and it's pretty hot. (i followed it all the way from the pipe coming down to the basement all the way to the boiler and it feels the same to the touch. i think it's safe to assume the pipe is ok.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,739
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    If that's the case then I would seriously lean towards that fill valve being bad. IMHO I would have it replaced. Even if you have a new boiler put in at some point it will work on the new boiler so nothing really lost in replacing it.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
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    CT1988 said:

    i checked the return pipe and it's pretty hot. (i followed it all the way from the pipe coming down to the basement all the way to the boiler and it feels the same to the touch. i think it's safe to assume the pipe is ok.

    Not sure what you were trying to accomplish by checking if it's hot?
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
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    Was wondering how the project is going…any updates or more questions, we can help you with? I saw a couple of red flags in some of your posts…How is the chimney? Has make up air been considered? Has the gas piping and gas pressure been considered? Has a complete system evaluation been done? Make sure the contractor you choose has a lic. and anyone he brings into help him has been listed under his insurance…File all necessary paperwork with the local authority [permits]…
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
    edited February 2015
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    thanks for everyone's help. due to the weather and such and having kids around the house, we went ahead and installed the new steam boiler. i'll post pics later after everything is cleaned up. i know i should have gotten a full eval first, but wife wants it done now and i had to get this done. thanks again for everyone's help as i learned a lot and was able to ask a lot of question as they were doing the install.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,739
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    Can't wait to see the pictures. What size boiler did you end up going with?
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 1,085
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    do you have an automatic filler? or is the manual fill valve possibly passing water. (or did the janitor leave the fill valve on . . . )

    the comments are right on here. find out why you overfilled. that is no excuse for getting a new boiler.

    now maybe there is something else about the boiler that merits a new one, but i tend to doubt that. don't see a picture of your boiler. (i think all the pics are your brother's boiler, right?)

    if oversizing is the problem (which i doubt was why your plumber made the replacement recommendation given his off the cuff suggestion of a bigger boiler), you should spend some time looking into downfiring on pressure and installing a
    'dwyerstat' to control that There has been extensive discussion on this on a couple recent threads (warning, you'll need a six pack to make it through each thread).

    idea for vaporstat alternative


    modulating atmospheric gas boilers

    now don't know whether your boiler is gas or oil and whether atmospheric or powered draft but the general concepts will apply.

    you will need a good tech and someone to take care with the combustion parameters of the dual firing. Even a new boiler closer to the size with a robust pick-up factor could be tamed with dual firing.

    unfortunately there is relatively small part of the market for steam and virtually no boiler manufacturers provide dual fire as an original equip. option.

    Brian
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
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    sorry, things has been hectic. Thanks for everyone's help & suggestions again. I was able to put in a new system and the overfilled situation is gone. here's the pic of the new boiler. imageimage
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
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    CT1988 said:

    sorry, things has been hectic. Thanks for everyone's help & suggestions again. I was able to put in a new system and the overfilled situation is gone. here's the pic of the new boiler. imageimage

    Sorry to be the one to tell you this, but that boiler is installed incorrectly.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,708
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    CT1988 said:

    sorry, things has been hectic. Thanks for everyone's help & suggestions again. I was able to put in a new system and the overfilled situation is gone. here's the pic of the new boiler. imageimage

    Your new boiler is piped completely wrong.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
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    Yup agreed. Not good at all...
  • CT1988
    CT1988 Member Posts: 50
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    what is wrong? now i'm really nervous.

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