Radiator Won't Stop Spitting Water

MattFour

Hi everyone, this is my first post to the forum. I've tried searching for this problem, but I can't seem to find an instance that's exactly like mine, so if this has already been addressed, apologies - please link me in the right direction.

I have an older house (built 1915) that features steam radiators. When I moved in (July 2012), I switched the system from oil to gas, and purchased a new Burnham boiler. I did not replace any of the radiators, as they all seemed to be in good working order when tested. For the past two years, the system has worked mostly fine, save for one radiator at the back of my house that never seemed to heat up fully - only four or five of the seven coils would actually get hot. This was a concern because it is located in the coldest room in the house.

This winter, I took it upon myself to crank the heat a bit more than I had in the past to see if I could get this radiator to warm up fully. The first time I did this, it did heat most of the way, but it started spurting warm water out of the vent. Now, every time that the radiator heats up fully, water spurts out. I did some research and made sure the radiator was pitched properly - this didn't fix the issue. More research, and switched out the valve with a new one, also didn't fix the issue. I closed the stem valve, removed the radiator from the pipe, and drained out any standing water that was left in there - still didn't work. I consider myself to be a fairly handy guy, but I can't seem to find a solution to this problem. Any help or advice before I spend an arm/leg to call in a qualified plumber would be much appreciated.

Fred

The horizontal steam supply pipe that feeds that raditor is probably pitched the wrong , maybe as a result of some settling over the years and is holding water. If you know which pipe feeds that radiator off off your main in the basement, check to make sure that feed is pitched towards the main so that water can run back to the Main and subsequently to the boiler. One way to correcct this (if this is the case) is to lift both ends of the radiator so that pipe is correctly pitched. Use blocks of wood under the legs of the radiator. When you have it raised, then you can repitch the end of the radiator back towards the supply pipe. (I am assumming this is a 1 pipe system)

Snowmelt

We need a picture of near boiler piping. Also your main line, what vents on them how many and how many vents are on them. First we have to get the vents dry and full of steam.

MattFour

Fred - yes, this is a one pipe system. I will check the pitch of the pipe in the basement and use some wood blocks under the radiator to adjust. There is definitely some vertical give in the piping, and settling would make sense.

Snowmelt - I will do my best to get the photos. Excuse my ignorance here, what exactly do the vents look like?

Fred

The radiator vents are the little chrome or brass colored devices on the end of the radiator, opposite the side that has the steam feed pipe. I'd check the pitch first.

MattFour

Fred, thanks, I do know what those vents are, I actually already replaced the one on this particular radiator. When he mentioned the "main line" I wasn't sure if he was referring to something in the basement. Working on the pitch issue you suggested as we speak.

Fred

MattFour said:

Fred, thanks, I do know what those vents are, I actually already replaced the one on this particular radiator. When he mentioned the "main line" I wasn't sure if he was referring to something in the basement. Working on the pitch issue you suggested as we speak.

There re Main vents in the basement (or should be). They should be at the ends of the Main, near where the main drops down into the return pipes that go back to the boiler. Those are important to the overall effeciency of the system but aren't likely to be related to this problem. We can discuss those, if you'd like after we figure out what is going on with this radiator.

MattFour

I've got 3/4" wood blocks under each of the radiator legs, and I put two nickels under each of the non-pipe side legs to pitch it slightly back to the pipe. Turning the system back on now to test.

Abracadabra

Did anyone skim the boiler properly after it was installed? What's the water level look like during a steam cycle? How much bounce? Any noise/hammering/etc?

MattFour

So I've let the radiator heat up twice, and water has spit out both times. I'm not sure if the plumbers "skimmed" the boiler after it was installed, but like I said, I haven't had any issues with any of the other radiators in the system, if that helps. I haven't monitored the water level during a cycle, but I certainly can if that would give us clues as to why this is causing it. No noise or hammering, and I'm not sure exactly what bounce is.

Fred

What Pressure is the boiler running at? either:
1. the pressure is too high (over 1.5PSI, hopefully lower) There is a Pressuretrol on the boiler. What is it set at? or
2. The boiler needs to be skimmed (bounce means the water in the sight glass jumps irradically up and/or down, more that 1/2 or 3/4 inch) or
3. The new vent you put on that radiator is venting to fast. What kind of vent is it ? Some are prone to spit water.
4. You also need to check the vents on the Mains in the Basement. If you don't have them or they are inadequate, that will compound the pressure problem.

MattFour

Attached are two photos - one is of the Pressuretrol, and one is of the vent, since I couldn't see a brand name. I purchased it at Home Depot, and I know they have a few other options available if this isn't right.

Do I watch the bounce in the sight glass right when I turn the heat up or at another point in the process? I will do that now. Lastly, can you tell me what/where to look for the vents in the basement?

Thank you so much for your help.

BobC

That home depot vent is not good, you would be better off with a name brand - Gorton, Maid O Mist, Hoffman.

Watch the sight glass when the boiler is making steam and the radiators are hot, movement of plus or minus 1/2 inch is probably ok, if its bouncing around a lot more the boiler probably needs skimming.

The main vents are usually near the end of steam mains or at the return pipe if it parallels the steam main. They can be silver, copper, or green in color.

Bob

Fred

The Pressuretrol looks like it is set OK but it doen't look like the pigtail (the loop pipe the pressuretrol is mounted to) has been off in a long time. Take the Pressuretrol off and then take that pigtail off and clean it out. It is an iron pigtail and they are especially prone to clogging up which means that the Presuretrol can't manage boiler pressure even though it is set correctly.
Look for your Main vents at the end of you Mains (the larger pipe that all of you radiators are fed off of) in the Basement, after the last pipe that feeds a radiator or on the return pipe before it drops down at the boiler. Those ventss look pretty much like huge radiator vents mounted on the top of the Main or return pipe.
Those USAV radiator vents are junk. They are made in china and just are not reliable. Throw them away and go to a plumbing supply house a buy a Hoffman 1A (allows you to adjust the venting from 1 to 6) or the old standby, a Hoffman #40 (no adjustment and a slow vent but works in most cases. I happen to prefer the Hoffman 1A as I can use them on all raadiators and adjust them to the needs of that radiator/room. Again brand is a matter of personal preferences but the USAV is probably the worst choice.
Watch for water bounce throughout an entire heating cycle.

MattFour

Thanks guys - I'll get to work on this and report back.

MattFour

Ok, so I've replaced the vent on the radiator with a Ventrite adjustable, which I was assured is as good as the Hoffman by two different local plumbing supply companies. Below is a picture of the only thing I can seem to think is the vent on the mains. There are two of them, one on either of end of the two largest pipes off the radiator. I cleaned the Pressuretrol pigtail pipe, which though dirty was not clogged.

Lastly, watching the "bounce" at first the water only moved a little bit up and down, but then it suddenly dropped to close to the bottom of the tube, and would fluctuate pretty wildly. If it needs skimming, is that something I can do or would require a professional?

nicholas bonham-carter

That doesn't look like any vent I have seen-it looks like an old ball valve. What diameter is it.
Is this a parallel flow system, in which the steam pipes leave the boiler close to the ceiling, and travel along sloping down, feeding the radiators, and finally returning back to the boiler area where they drop down to the wet returns?
The alternative configuration is the counterflow system in which the piping starts out lower at the boiler, and slopes up to the last radiator where it ends.
The mains need main vents at their ends. Depending on the type of system you have, the ends will be in the boiler room, or in some crawl space, under the floor!
I suspect you never had any main vents, since the days of coal, and the radiator vents have been doing the work, thus causing the boiler to run longer each call for heat.--NBC

Abracadabra

please define "fluctuate pretty wildly"

More than an inch up/down? if so, sounds like you need some skimming.

Fred

It sounds like the boiler definitely needs to be skimmed since you indicated the water dropped down low, near the bottom of the glass and then bounced up and down a lot.
You can skim it yourself if the boiler has a skimport on it. We need a couple pictures of the boiler to see if one is on there. If so, we can tell you how to skim. If it doesn' have a skim port, it may be possibe to use an alternative but we need a look at what is on the boiler

MattFour

Ok, here are the photos as requested. Just to clarify, "fluctuate wildly" means jumping up about an inch, then dropping down five or six inches after a few minutes. Nichols Bonham-Carter, I've attached a photo at the end so you can see the piping - the main and then a parallel pipe that seems to work as the water return. Luckily, the ends of all my pipes are in the basement and I do have access to them. If you need additional photos of the boiler, please let me know.

Fred

No skim port but that is a Burnham with the Pressure Relief valve mounted on the back and that can be used to skim. Turn the power off to the boiler so that it can't come on.
Take the pressure relief valve off and take the elbow off. Replace the elbow with a 3/4' Tee. Remount the pressure relief valve on the top of the Tee and put a 3 inch or 4 inch nipple on the end of the tee (hand tight). If you have an auto water feeder, turn it off. use the Manual water valve to fill the boiler up with water until water starts to come out of the pipe you just installed. Use a bucket to capture the water. turn the water valve down until the water just trickles out of that pipe (the slower the better but no more than a flow the size of a pencil diameter). At this point (after I have the flow properly adjusted), I usually put a garden hose on the end of the pipe nipple and let it drain to a floor drain for several hours (5 or 6 hours).
When done, shut the water valve off, use the boiler drain to lower the water in the boiler down to its normal level, take the nipple off of the Tee (leave the Tee for future use as a skim port) and put a 3/4 inch plug in the end of the Tee and tur the power back on to the boiler.
Obviously this process is very slow so you will want to do it on a day when the boiler can be off for several hours.
EDITED to add following quastions:
I can't see from the pictures how the near boiler piping (Header, boiler riser and mains are tied together but I do see the Hartford loop (or what should be a Hartford loop is upside down. If you were to get a leak in any of the wet return piping, the way that is set up, it will let your boiler drain empty and it could dry fire and cause some significant damage.

MattFour

Fred, is the pressure relief valve in one the photos I posted? I just want to make sure I'm looking in the correct spot.

Fred

It is the Brass device on the back of the boiler up high with the copper pipe that goes down towards the floor and is open on that end.