my old system is not set up for chemical clean and purge.

maybemark

Before I change my existing boiler to the whn085, i would like to clean the system out very good. I am thinking of using
Rhomar cleaner, and let it sit in my system with the existing old boiler. the problem, my boiler is not set up for installing the cleaner, then doing a purge and since my system is close to 100 years old, and as far as i know, it's never been cleaned. I do have 2 boiler valves on the old boiler system, one by the expansion tank and the other at the boiler to drain.
Do i have to have Fred modify my system, to do what i am thinking of doing? And if so, what would i need to modify it, and where would it go on my system?
How long should i have the cleaner be in my old system? Should I do this a couple times?
thanks
mark

FranklinD

When I had my boiler replaced, there were no isolation valves or easy way to add a cleaner...we ended up draining water from the boiler until the top floor rads were empty, then pumping the solution in through a removed air bleeder on each of the empty rads. Then we added water and bled air and ran the system for maybe 8-10 hours. I don't remember the specifics, but I could ask my boiler installer. It seemed to work pretty well.

SWEI

Depending on the piping and valve arrangements, you may be able to use the existing drains. Can you post a photo of the area showing both of them?

maybemark

thanks Franklin for your input. I have a feeling, I will need to cleen and flush several times, and i was hoping for an easy way of doing it. I have a few old stops in the basement, that i can isolate the boiler, and hoping to add a valve that i can put the cleaner in, and flush it. i just don't know what would be best, and where would be the best plaace to put it
thanks again
mark

maybemark

Swei
I would be more than happy to take some photos. If Fred dosn't have to do anything to add the cleaner, great, but thee are unions down there, and i don't think it would be a big deal to add something to make our fill and flsh easier.
thanks
mark

maybemark

the 1st photo is coming from the expantion tank just above
2nd picture is the drain valve for the boiler
3rd picture is showing I have stops and unions to isolate the boiler
4th, again showing stop
if any other picture are needed to help solve this problem, it's no problem for me to take more pictures

SWEI

How about a picture from farther back, that shows both drains?

maybemark

I will try and do that, I have limited sce behind me to do it, but i will try
thanks
Mark

maybemark

I hope this is good, I also tried a video, but i don't know if it will load

maybemark

it tells me I am not allowed to do that kind of file, so, sorry, no video. I hope that one picture tells a story

SWEI

Can't really see enough to tell. Assuming you pumped water in one drain and out the other, would it pass through at least some of the distribution piping -- perhaps after closing a valve or two?

maybemark

looking at the 2 drains, there are shut offs so the rest of the system won't drain. I am only guessing, but I don't know if it's even 1/2 gal of pipe between those 2 drains. thats only a guess

SWEI

You need to find a way to push water in from one place and take it out from another, while routing it through as much of the piping as possible. A couple of circulator flanges with 90˚ elbows and male garden hose adapters will do it. Fred can figure that out for you.

maybemark

so, those 2 drains will be useless to me?

SWEI

As you've described the piping, yes. You could use one of them if you added another drain in the right place.

maybemark

what about draining between the 2 drains, fill the pipe up with cleaner. close up the drains, open up the stops, put the pump on a little bit, then do the same thing over again? Could that work?

maybemark

where all the stops are located, I can't see a gal of cleaner getting anywhere,
can i fill the expansion tank somehow, then let it into the system?

maybemark

how much do you think i will need? 1 gal 1 1/2 gal?

SWEI

You want to power purge first, then put the cleaner in. Adapters to the pump flanges will work perfectly, or you can add a drain.

maybemark

this question will show how little I know. i have heard of power purging, but i don't know how to power purge

maybemark

what kind of adapter to the pump flanges? SWEI, I am so sorry, but I just don't know what you mean

maybemark

does it mean bleeding the air out of the radiators?

SWEI

Power purging is blowing domestic cold water at line pressure through the system. With an open pipe (hose) at the outlet, run the water until it comes out clear.

A new set of pump flanges will bolt to the ones already in the system. If you buy a pair of flanges for 3/4" or 1" pipe, you can install a 90˚ elbows and male garden hose adapter on each. You remove the circulator (after draining as much of the system as needed) and install the adapters, at which time you will have two garden hose threads you can hook up to. You might want to add valves to those, given that your existing flanges do not have them. Fred will understand all of this.

maybemark

thank you
I totally understand

maybemark

I still am not sure how i will be getting enough cleaner in the system at one time, unless I do it in steps. how much cleaner do you think?

maybemark

and how long should i keep the cleaner in the system?

maybemark

If i have to power purge the system 1st, this means I will have to drain the boiler. If I drain the boiler, I will have plenty of room to install the cleaner. i will have the whole boiler to fill

SWEI

Once you have power purged the system, you close the valves and hook a pump to one of the hoses. Use the pump to push the cleaner into the system, cracking the other valve to let some water out. Depending on the type of pump you have, there are different methods. A portable submersible pump in a 5-gallon bucket works well enough.

maybemark

1" Full Port Forged Brass Ball Valve w/ Hi-Flow Hose Drain & Reversible Handle, IPS Union x IPS

are you saying buy 4 of these?

SWEI

What size pipes are feeding the two zones? Are they copper or iron? Is any of that going to change with the new boiler? What about pumps?

Get the plumber involved or you may well end up with the wrong parts.

maybemark

the old boiler is iron, I will be going from the iron 3" educed down to 1" and this will be copper at that point.
Fred was the one to tell me to get the pump flange with the stops on them. You mentioned the 15-58 on low should be good for my system, right now it's working on a 007 single speed

maybemark

SWEI
I will purchase whatever you suggest. Fred is a great plumber, but he is old school, and does not know much about these specialty valves that would be extremly useful in the end. Whatever I purchased wrong, I will just give to Fred, and he will use it elsewhere.
It's not that i am made of money, actually i need to take out a loan for this, but i want it done right. Fred will use what I tell him to use.

SWEI

If you have 1" copper in the lines, buy the 1" copper sweat flanges.

maybemark

for the new system, i bought the 1" copper sweat flange with stop. But I think you are saying I should have bought the flange with stop and hose bib

SWEI

Usually at least one of the flanges needs a drain nearby. If you have already have the flanges, Fred can easily install a tee and a drain.

maybemark

ok, than i will purchase a pair of flanges with drains, and i will put one with the heat loop, the other with the dhw loop?
before or after, should the drain go?
I am just realizing, do you mean put the flange onthe old system for the purge and fill? Or are you refering to the new system?
If your saying do it for both, i can buy a pair of the flanges with drains with threads, so it could be used over again in the new system with just an adapter put on to it.
Thanks
Mark
if i am wrong in my thinking, please tell me

maybemark

I think i misunderstood you. your not telling me to buy flanges, your telling me to tee in a drain near the flange.
this will not be a problem doing, there is a union very close by, and he can repipe from the union to the flange for the purge and fill of the chemical.
I can go ahead and purchase like i said before, if you feel it's so important, the parts i bought that are not proper, it will go into Freds stock, and he will use it elsewhere

SWEI

If you have the flanges already, just have Fred add a drain using a tee. If you're buying flanges, the extra $10-15 for a nice ball drain with a cap is well worth it IMO. You don't need drains everywhere, but I have a strong preference for systems on which you can isolate and purge the boiler or any zone, without shutting down or draining the other parts of the system. Remember, an indirect is also a zone. You'll want one at the low point (so you can drain the boiler) which may be covered by one of the above -- again depending on the system piping layout.

Think about (or have Fred think about, you guys really do need to discuss this stuff) the possibility of needing to remove or replace either the boiler or the indirect at some point in the (hopefully distant) future. This can be done with unions or pump flanges, but the goal is to be able to service or replace either without having to cut pipe.

maybemark

I think i am lucky, because we have unions before it goes into each 3" pipe, plus there are those old square stops on each of these sections, so, the boiler can be removed, without loosing all the water in the system. when we are ready to put the new system in, I will have to remove all the waterbecause the square stops are on the 1 1/4" pipe that feed the boiler and that goes to the heat loop.
thanks again
Mark

SWEI

Sounds like you're on the right track.

maybemark

thanks. I have discused this with Fred, and he agreed to do this, if I have someone do the piping layout. He admits, he does not know mod/cons, but he can follow instruction. When i placed the 1st order for parts, he was here, helping me to decide on which part to order, by looking at the manuals piping layout. At this time, we were looking at the primary secondary system. Since then it was suggested to use only one pump for the boiler and the heat loop. In the manual it doesn't show the flange with stop and hose connection. Fred was the one telling me to purchase the flange with the stop on it.
I want this system to work right, and easy to maintaine, if you feel it's best, to donate the flanges i purchased to fred, I will do so, and then i will purchase the other flanges with the stops and the hose bib.
thanks
mark