Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.

material used in condensation neutralizers

Options
maybemark
maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
I've heard you can use marble chips for the material in the neutralizer, is this true? Is there a better material to use?
And how large should these chips be? Can you just go to a landscaping outfit and purchase stone?

Comments

  • Wayco Wayne_2
    Wayco Wayne_2 Member Posts: 2,479
    Options
    We build our own neutrilizers all the time. Sometimes w buy a plastic bucket and run the drain line to the bottom and the outlet drain 3/4's up the side of the buckett. That way the water has to pass through the marble chips to get out. I once bought a pre made neutrilizer from the supply house and opened it up. It had marble chips inside. Duh!
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    thanks wayne
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Options
    Limestone gravel, typically 3/8" - 1/2" screen. A couple of san tees, a plug for the bottom, and a rubber cap for the top will work.
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    I was looking for marble chips at Home depot, not limestone. They didn't have marble, they did have a stone, but i did not look close enough to it if it is limestone.
    I was going to use a 2" pvc glue on a 2" adaptor, then put a plug or a cap on it. On the other side was going to put a reducing bushing to accept either a barb fitting or 1/2 pvc .What are the sanatary tee's for?
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Options
    Marble is just metamorphized limestone. Either will work fine.

    The san tees are stacked, one on top of the other with the inlet connected to the bottom one and the outlet to the top one. For a single small boiler, a section of 2" would be more than adequate.
    CLamb
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,327
    Options
    any gravel driveways in eyesight? Good chance the gravel on driveways, roads, concrete mix plants, gravel pits etc is limestone. Call around to local quarries or red mix locations, you shouldn't need to buy gravel :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    hot rod thanks, from the material yard, 2 bucks for a 5 gal container
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    problem is, it's 3/4" gravel, won't that be too large? I could put a hammer to it, but, I think limestone is soft and it will crumble
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,327
    Options
    I doubt size matters, probably more about surface area exposed to fluid. Too small of an aggregate, like base rock could plug the drain, maybe.

    Here is mine. I used a 3" closet flange and piece of clear PVC to watch how the gravel dissolves. My AC condensate line also run thru it.

    I buy the gravel in 10 wheeler loads, 1" minus is what I have for our 1/2 mile drive way :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    rod, for some odd reeason the picture isn't showing up in full, just the very top. I'll try and re-boot, maybe it's my puter.
    i was thinking of using 2" pvc, but maybe i should use 3" about 12 - 16" I was thinking
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    the picture came thru, i saw this on youtube, or maybe on this wall, something just like yours, not as tall
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    my thought on how it should look, with thread connectors to be able to take it apart
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Options
    $22 per ton here, just haul it from the pit. You want a screen with a minimum (does not have 'minus' in the name.)
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Options
    hot rod said:



    I buy the gravel in 10 wheeler loads, 1" minus is what I have for our 1/2 mile drive way :)

    I hope that it doesn't snow in your area of Missouri and you don't ever have to plow that 1/2 mile driveway.
  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,770
    edited January 2015
    Options
    We use san tee, cap on one end and cleanout adapter and plug on other. We drill and tap the pvc cap for 3/4 in the middle of cap and run 3/4 to drain. Fill er up with limestone 1 or 3/4" minus. Drip condensate into side outlet of san tee facing up. unistrut to wall under boiler. Works slick. Buy limestone by the ton pricing. usually 5 bucks for 100 lbs bagged in 50lb gunny sacks.
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    Tim, I am not following your set up for the neutrilizer, i wish i did, by any chance do you have a picture of it? i was thinking of drilling and tapping into cap, do you use hose, or pvc for the run to the drain?
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    I kno what a sanitary tee is, but i can not invision how yoou are applying it. SWEI uses san tees also, actually if i understood, he uses 2 back to back.
    I have also seen a pvc drum trap used , but it doesn't seem like it would hold too much stone
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    Tim
    I think i am unsderstanding what you do. sounds good
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    Tim,
    your way is very simple, what size san tee do you use? I guess you feel it holds enough stone, does it make it thru the season?
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    Is this what you do?
    what size tee?
  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,770
    Options
    2" for under 200000 btu 3" for bigger boilers. That's just a guess on my part but has worked well for me. Usually charge with appx 2 lbs of limestone.
  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,770
    Options
    btw, the drawing you show is tapping the cleanout plug. I tap the glue on cap so I can pull cleanout plug to flush out when needed.
    maybemark
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    thanks, i did notice i drew it wrong compared to your drawing, your a big help
    Mark
    I like this way alot
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    SWEI
    why should the basement radiator be in series, why not normal hook up. Wont it give off more heat in normal hook up? I am just trying to learn, not trying to overmind you.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Options
    You're jumping threads here. I'll reply in the other one.
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    sorry for jumping posts
  • TonyS
    TonyS Member Posts: 849
    Options
    I use calcite,, its crushed marble or limestone for water neutralizers. Its sold wherever you purchase water conditioning equipment. Use a pvc drum trap with the plug upward.
  • TonyS
    TonyS Member Posts: 849
    Options
  • maybemark
    maybemark Member Posts: 1,131
    Options
    thanks Tony, i've seen the drum trap, it seems like a good idea, but i think i will try the san tee, but thanks for your input.
  • George_37
    George_37 Member Posts: 8
    Options
    My name is George Carney, Pres. of JJM Boiler Works, Inc. we are an eleven year manufacture of pH treatment products for condensing Boilers, Hot Water Heaters, Furnaces, Stack Drains, and Stack Economizers with over 14 OEM accounts. We also sell to many Wholesalers / Manufactures Reps. and have dealers in all fifty states, Canada, and Europe. There is a reason for this and putting LIMESTONE CHIPS into a container is NOT IT.

    We manufacture our own active ingredient which is Magnesium Oxide Pellets. This is the same mineral used to make Tums, Rolaids, and Milk of Magnesia of coarse these products use a finer process for human use. Our pellets have an excess of Neg. Ions (Base OH-) to exchange with the Pos. Ions (OH+) in a acidic solution (Condensate). These Neg. Ions (Atoms) in Magnesium Oxide pellets react much faster and last longer than LIMESTONE CHIPS we are dealing with flow rates as these appliances operate and produce acidic condensate. If the acidic solution can sit in a in a limestone bed for a long period of time (like the tanks you see at waste water treatment plants) it would work fine, but you don't have time your dealing with a flowing solution.
    Now please don't get me wrong limestone chips will result in an increase of pH for about a month or less then it will have no effect on pH. (Please try it on your next project using a digital pH pocket probe). You could put a 20 or 30 gallon tank filled with limestone on your next 100,000 BTU project but is that realistic?

    We have tested every over the counter "LIMESTONE CHIP NEUTRALIZER" in the industry with extremely poor results. Of coarse we can not test a contractor's home made invention unless they want to send it to us.
    My educated guess is you will end up with the same results after a month of use, which is a pH level less than 5.0.

    We at JJM take great pride in manufacturing a product that actually works as advertised. In that regard and at the risk of losing some business I will tell you that in our opinion through testing results only four products works over the long run, there maybe be other products that we are not aware of:

    1. JJM Boiler Works, Inc. (US Product)
    2. Axiom Industries (Canadian Product)
    3. Viessmann (German Product)
    4. Cal-Calgon (US Product)
    All of the above are trade marked.

    The problem with this type of product (Neutralizers) is that there is NO protocol for testing within our industry like there is for all other equipment. We are currently working with CSA on testing pH products produced by all. We have also applied for certification at AHRI. Stay Tuned.

    JJM welcomes anyone manufacturing "LIMESTONE CHIP NEUTRALIZERS" as their only active ingredient to our shop for a side by side test using our protocol to compare results. We are friendly and we don't bite!

    I just want all of us to be proactive in making the best possible products for the industry that we love and has given us a good living.

    pH PRODUCTS DO HAVE A SCIENCE BEHIND THEM IT IS NOT GUESS WORK.





    icesailorJimP
  • Larry_52
    Larry_52 Member Posts: 182
    Options
    George,

    I am sure you are a nice guy but some of you information is not exactly true.

    First the there is really no expression of OH+ because it doesn't exist in water, it is expressed in H+ for acids.

    Magnesium Oxide is a metal salt and has no inherent hydroxide OH- in solid form, mixing in water will provide some magnesium hydroxide but is mostly held back by insolubility of it. Magnesium hydroxide which is divalent, so it has two of those hydroxide ions, is not the major work horse for your product. The metal oxide you use just trades up its O for Cl or S.

    In strong acid neutralization power pure limestone versus magnesium oxide is like comparing a push pedal car to a automobile in terms of power.

    If I were to compare the hydroxide form of calcium to magnesium, calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) versus Magnesium hydroxide (milk of magnesia), the slaked lime will win hands down. The Magnesium hydroxide reaction is slower because of its higher insolubility in water and because of this incapable of raising the pH above 7 (good control factor though). Slaked lime will react faster, is economically cheaper and has more neutralization strength due to it solubility above pH of 7.

    If you were to compare the oxide form of CaO calcium (quick lime) again it is a more powerful neutralizer & cheaper.

    Limestone is mainly calcium carbonate which in strong acids will breakdown into CO2, calcium chloride and water. This reaction is slow as you mentioned. Requires intimate contact time and any of its neutralization power is compromised by the percipitation of surface with calcium salts it creates. But in terms of economics and process it is viable as long as the limestone lacks any participates on its surface, volume/mass sized correctly and limestone granular sizing is derived from some smaller sieve process.


    Anytime a lime product is mentioned there is mass confusion about what you are talking about. Lime is a generic term, but as explained there are some significant differences between the forms that have its name.

    MgO is a better means of neutralizing than Calcium carbonate (limestone) as it does react well with strong acids and it is less exothermic than most of the of the calcium forms mentioned but it ain't cheaper or more "powerful".





  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Options
    I fill the Axiom box every 3-4 years with ~$2 worth of limestone chips. The cast iron pipes are still there. Am I doing it wrong?
    RobG
  • Larry_52
    Larry_52 Member Posts: 182
    Options
    Only way to know is to test the outlet at peak production.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Options
    Not actually worried, but I think I'll actually do that next fall just to be sure.
  • Robert O'Connor_12
    Robert O'Connor_12 Member Posts: 728
    Options
    I prefer to pipe it to the clothes washing machine stand pipe myself. The difference in ph from the detergents does a fine job of neutralization for free!
    Until the smart people come up with a standard. I'll keep making them & adding chips.
  • Hilly
    Hilly Member Posts: 428
    Options
    A lot of grave yards will use white marble chips. There's always a concrete or 'ornamental concrete' supplies around. You just have to find them, but knowing where to look makes it easier.
  • ryanwc
    ryanwc Member Posts: 50
    Options
    When you know the company ignored your request to send someone experienced with mod-cons for the annual service visit.:

    - Service Guy: Hey, you got a garbage bag? There's this stuff in the condensate trap.
    - Me: That looks like gravel. There must be a reason that's there. That didn't form out of the impurities in the condensate water.
    - Service Guy: Yeah, maybe I better call one of my colleagues and see why this is here.

    Ultimately, this is about whether the water heading to the sewer is overly acidic, right? Or am I missing something? None of it goes back into the boiler or the heat pipes, does it? Can it damage the plastic tubing of the condensate pump line or the PVC of the laundry standpipe where it drains? Or is the issue any metal piping further on - our sewer service line and the main?

    >A lot of graveyards will use white marble chips

    Just be wary. Those calcium-based stony chips they give you could be the ashes of grandpa.
  • Johnnyonthespot
    Johnnyonthespot Member Posts: 1
    Options
    Should I place it before or after the pump?
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,085
    Options
    I would say to put the neutralizer before the pump.
    This would give more time for the cond to be in contact with the media.

    After the pump would run it thru too quick and possibly load up the pump.