Effects of too much water treatment.

ChrisJ

So after my short skim I felt I removed enough water to warrant adding another Steamaster tablet. I never expected what happened next.

I fired the boiler up and the EcoSteam shut it down only shortly after it started steaming. I looked up and my pressure shot way up. My first assumption was I left valves closed, but, I didn't close any but checked them anyway.

During this video no steam had even traveled to any radiators yet.

http://youtu.be/NAtcDLePJis

I fired the system back up and watched the pressure climb. Even though this was going on the system was heating fine and the water line was fairly stable. It's surprising how dark the water was at this point. Sorry for the steam going past the camera, I left the bucket of hot water from skimming in front of me. All of this was kind of a surprise.

http://youtu.be/dPIx0xnEVUo


After removing around 5 gallons of water and adding fresh water my pressure dropped a little lower than it was originally. I had been running two tablets but I suspect it was a hair too much and this is why adding more pushed it way over the line.

http://youtu.be/ssTosd_UiWY


If I had only a 30 PSI gauge I would've never noticed a difference.

BobC

I have the Smith G8-3 and I find one whole tablet is too much on this size boiler, I'm sure it holds less water than yours does. I drain off a couple of gallons and then top it off with plain water, that gives me a PH that looks a little over 9.

I tried two tablets once and my sight glass was what you had and the PH was well over 11. I drained over half the boiler water that day.

Bob

ChrisJ

@BobC‌ ,
I think it also has to do with the initial PH of the water as well.

ChrisJ

Found some useful information regarding the main chemicals in Steamaster tablets after talking to some people that know far more than I do.

There are four main chemicals per the MSDS.

1: Sodium Nitrite. % by weight 44.04
2: Sodium Triphosphate % by weight 23.52
3: Sodium Metasilicate % by weight 1.34
4: Citric Acid. % by weight 3.36

Below is the response from someone named macckone.

Sodium Nitrite is a corrosion inhibitor.
Citric acid is to remove scale.
Sodium Triphosphate is a detergent commonly used
on steel to help remove rust and is acidic.
Sodium metasilicate is used as a defloculant.

Both sodium triphosphate and sodium metasilicate
can cause foaming which is bad in a boiler system.

The blue to purple color change suggests a pH indicator.
Before boiling the calcium carbonate load of the water
will be high but it is forced out of solution by boiling.
It is one of the relatively few compounds that is
less soluble at high temperature.

Citric acid will dissolve most metal oxides and carbonates.

The sodium nitrite will also lowers oxide levels which is
important in protecting steel.

Sodium Triphosphate is an acidic form which binds with
calcium as well as iron oxide. This helps remove rust but
can cause foaming.

Sodium metasilicate is used to settle out particles in the
system which should be removed during blowout.
It can also cause foaming.

Larger systems have a treatment tank followed by
a filter before the boiler. They also have deaerators.

Things to remember in a boiler system.
Carbon Dioxide and Oxygen in the system is bad.
Too high of an alkalinity means too much dissolved
calcium carbonate.
Feed water to the boiler should be deionized or demineralized
with the later being more common.
Additionally the feedwater should be deaerated.

Most of this is difficult for a home system but normal
maintenance for a commercial system.

hot_rod

excellent info on how and what the inhibitor packages do in those cleaners

ChrisJ

Below are pictures of a small test I did with the help of some great people on a chemistry forum.

The violet color in Steamaster appears to be a pH indicator that turns below if your pH is below 8 or so. I'm waiting on confirmation, but this appears to be what's going on. Which is nice because it means if your water is violet, your pH is safe assuming it's not too high.

Captain Who

That's very interesting. I figured that it must be a pH indicator. Thanks for doing the test to confirm it. Next year I will use Steammaster tablets instead of the Hercules Boiler Cleaner I used this year, which gave me some respiratory distress.

ChrisJ

What I don't understand is they tell you to keep adding more until it turns violet. What if your pH is low? Won't adding enough to bring it up cause an overdose of certain chemicals leading to foaming and carry over?

Captain Who

I guess that would be another experiment. Won't ask that of you though

Fred

Chris, you listed the 4 main ingredients in the Steamaster tablets. Are there any subordinate anti-foaming agents in it?

ChrisJ

Fred said:

Chris, you listed the 4 main ingredients in the Steamaster tablets. Are there any subordinate anti-foaming agents in it?

Unfortunately I don't know. All I know is what the MSDS says and that only lists harmful ingredients.

KC_Jones

IF the color is a PH indicator wouldn't it be possible to have a color chart to check the PH right against the sight glass? Similar idea to some of those pool test kits?! I am assuming it's not that simple or they would have done it already, but the idea intrigues me.

ChrisJ

KC_Jones said:

IF the color is a PH indicator wouldn't it be possible to have a color chart to check the PH right against the sight glass? Similar idea to some of those pool test kits?! I am assuming it's not that simple or they would have done it already, but the idea intrigues me.

Not really.
From what I saw this one is either blue if you're below a certain point and violet if above. The color becomes stronger as you go further in either direction, but not much and you could never figure it out by using a chart.

What it comes down to is if it's violet, you're 90% likely fine pH wise. There seems to be a far bigger concern with nitrite levels dropping off over time, or not being high enough to begin with. Sodium nitrite is the corrosion inhibitor in the pill.

I'm asking about that right now.

Captain Who

Any idea what ppm the nitrites are when you use the Steammaster tablets? This checker has a range of 0 - 150ppm. I suppose it is probably higher than that though:

http://shop.hannainst.com/products-by-category/checkers/hi708-nitrite-hr.html

ChrisJ

Nope, I've been trying to figure that out.
It sounds like some treatments recommend 1000ppm.

Would nitrite fall under TDS? My water measures around 500ppm for TDS.

Captain Who

10,000ppm.........Well that meter only goes up to 150ppm but if you did a 100:1 dilution it would work. So if you took a 246.45ml sample of boiler water and took a 1/2 tsp (2.46ml) of that and poured it into 244 ml of distilled water you would get a reading of 100ppm if the boiler water was exactly 10,000ppm

I don't really think nitrites would be detectable on a TDS meter.....not sure. TDS would definitely detect dissolved minerals though. Nitrites are more in the realm of organics I think.

ChrisJ

A good write up on water treatment. Also mentions sodium nitrite

http://www.boilersmith.com/appendixd.html

Right now I'm looking into the possibility of using this either with, or without Steamaster.

http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=sodium+nitrite


A snip from the above article.

The value of this compound, and of another inhibitor containing sodium nitrite and sodium nitrate, was established in a series of tests performed at the Babcock & Wilcox Research & Development Center. These tests proved that both the sodium chromate and the sodium nitrite-nitrate inhibitor were effective not only in preventing attack by dissolved oxygen, but also in stopping further attack after it had started. There are some limitations on the amount of chlorides or sulfates that can be tolerated, but these are seldom a factor in waters used in heating boilers.

ChrisJ

This also seems like a decent place to deal with.
They have a nitrite testing kit as well.

The recommended test range is 800 - 1500 ppm as Sodium Nitrite.

http://www.cannonwater.net/nitrite-test-kit.aspx


Not sure if this product is safe for boilers with gaskets or not yet.
http://www.cannonwater.net/BW409.aspx

Fred

I have some real concern that using your boilers as a "Lab" of sorts might get you some results you weren't anticipating, maybe good, maybe bad. Seems like sticking with proven products or paying a lab (or even a volunteer chemist that might be on this site) to custom design a product based on your design objectives might be a better way to go. IMHO, I'm just say'n

ChrisJ

Fred said:

I have some real concern that using your boilers as a "Lab" of sorts might get you some results you weren't anticipating, maybe good, maybe bad. Seems like sticking with proven products or paying a lab (or even a volunteer chemist that might be on this site) to custom design a product based on your design objectives might be a better way to go. IMHO, I'm just say'n

But, we're not, or at least I'm not.
I would be using recommended practices.

Fred

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

I have some real concern that using your boilers as a "Lab" of sorts might get you some results you weren't anticipating, maybe good, maybe bad. Seems like sticking with proven products or paying a lab (or even a volunteer chemist that might be on this site) to custom design a product based on your design objectives might be a better way to go. IMHO, I'm just say'n

But, we're not, or at least I'm not.
I would be using recommended practices.

OK, I thought you guys had already decided to try "Something" and see what effect that had.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

I have some real concern that using your boilers as a "Lab" of sorts might get you some results you weren't anticipating, maybe good, maybe bad. Seems like sticking with proven products or paying a lab (or even a volunteer chemist that might be on this site) to custom design a product based on your design objectives might be a better way to go. IMHO, I'm just say'n

But, we're not, or at least I'm not.
I would be using recommended practices.

OK, I thought you guys had already decided to try "Something" and see what effect that had.

Only in small quantities not in the boiler.

If I do try adding sodium nitrite it would only be after buying a correct test kit to measure the levels. I would then add until I'm in the recommended 800-1500ppm range.

You cannot do that without an accurate reliable way to measure what's going on.

Captain Who

@ChrisJ - this one looks like it uses a different formulation and may be better for one pipe steam since it even says the steam may come in contact with food products. I am mindful of this since I had some respiratory irritation from that other product:

http://www.cannonwater.net/BW629.aspx

Seems like a good site with solutions that include testers for the key anti-corrosion aspects of each product. I'm still looking for their Cannon Water Technology Inc.’s “Basic Steam Boiler Water Treatment”, that they recommend reading but I can't find it.

ChrisJ

Captain Who said:

@ChrisJ - this one looks like it uses a different formulation and may be better for one pipe steam since it even says the steam may come in contact with food products. I am mindful of this since I had some respiratory irritation from that other product:

http://www.cannonwater.net/BW629.aspx

Seems like a good site with solutions that include testers for the key anti-corrosion aspects of each product. I'm still looking for their Cannon Water Technology Inc.’s “Basic Steam Boiler Water Treatment”, that they recommend reading but I can't find it.

Which product did you have respiratory irritation with?

Captain Who

I posted a thread on it.....Hercules Boiler Cleaner. Everybody avoided it like the plague because I mentioned that a couple of the ingredients that were listed in the MSDS were "possibly" carcinogenic and/or toxic.
http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/152623/hercules-boiler-cleaner#latest

After I lowered the concentration and replaced 2 of my varivalves and cleaned all the others in hot vinegar, the irritation was much less noticeable so I am leaving well enough alone for now, but I still need to at least adjust the pH. The cyclohexamine and butaminide is supposed to protect the steam pipes from corrosion.......filming amines.

Captain Who

"Below is the response from someone named macckone.

Sodium Nitrite is a corrosion inhibitor.
Citric acid is to remove scale.
Sodium Triphosphate is a detergent commonly used
on steel to help remove rust and is acidic.
Sodium metasilicate is used as a defloculant.

Both sodium triphosphate and sodium metasilicate
can cause foaming which is bad in a boiler system..........*snip"

I think that's a mistake by macckone where he said that Sodium Triphosphate is acidic, isn't it?:

"How does it work?
As a builder, sodium triphosphate (STPP) sequestrates calcium and magnesium ions. It is a soluble builder and forms soluble complexes with hardness ions. As a pH buffering agent, STPP binds to protons."
http://scienceinthebox.com/Pages/glossary-item.aspx?PrimaryNavigation=Glossary&CssClassName=glossary&FolderName=glossary-item&FilePath=sodium-triphosphate-stpp&Teaser=0

buffer solution
A solution which can maintain an almost constant pH value when dilute acids or alkalis are added to it.

ChrisJ

Captain Who said:

"Below is the response from someone named macckone.

Sodium Nitrite is a corrosion inhibitor.
Citric acid is to remove scale.
Sodium Triphosphate is a detergent commonly used
on steel to help remove rust and is acidic.
Sodium metasilicate is used as a defloculant.

Both sodium triphosphate and sodium metasilicate
can cause foaming which is bad in a boiler system..........*snip"

I think that's a mistake by macckone where he said that Sodium Triphosphate is acidic, isn't it?:

"How does it work?
As a builder, sodium triphosphate (STPP) sequestrates calcium and magnesium ions. It is a soluble builder and forms soluble complexes with hardness ions. As a pH buffering agent, STPP binds to protons."
http://scienceinthebox.com/Pages/glossary-item.aspx?PrimaryNavigation=Glossary&CssClassName=glossary&FolderName=glossary-item&FilePath=sodium-triphosphate-stpp&Teaser=0

buffer solution
A solution which can maintain an almost constant pH value when dilute acids or alkalis are added to it.

I don't know,
I suppose it's possible.

Canucker

Captain Who said:

"Below is the response from someone named macckone.

Sodium Nitrite is a corrosion inhibitor.
Citric acid is to remove scale.
Sodium Triphosphate is a detergent commonly used
on steel to help remove rust and is acidic.
Sodium metasilicate is used as a defloculant.

Both sodium triphosphate and sodium metasilicate
can cause foaming which is bad in a boiler system..........*snip"

I think that's a mistake by macckone where he said that Sodium Triphosphate is acidic, isn't it?:

"How does it work?
As a builder, sodium triphosphate (STPP) sequestrates calcium and magnesium ions. It is a soluble builder and forms soluble complexes with hardness ions. As a pH buffering agent, STPP binds to protons."
http://scienceinthebox.com/Pages/glossary-item.aspx?PrimaryNavigation=Glossary&CssClassName=glossary&FolderName=glossary-item&FilePath=sodium-triphosphate-stpp&Teaser=0

buffer solution
A solution which can maintain an almost constant pH value when dilute acids or alkalis are added to it.

Yes, it is mildly alkaline. It will buffer against a mildly acidic solution, ymmv

ChrisJ

My main dislike with Steamaster is the instructions that do not make any sense and the fact their customer service has never bothered to respond to either of the 2 emails I sent.

Basing water treatment quantity off of radiation or burner output rather than water quantity seems silly.

So far both Rhomar and Cannon water both responded to questions immediately.

LionA29

Great work @ChrisJ , thank you!