Heating issue please help

haventseenenough

From the pictures it looks like a gravity or steam system that has not been properly converted.

icesailor

haventseenenough said:

From the pictures it looks like a gravity or steam system that has not been properly converted.

Its not. (a steam or gravity system)

But some "Expert" will do a complete re-do and not solve the problem.

When Apollo 13 blew up in space, it was traced to a LOX tank for a fuel cell. Inside the tank was a thermostat to control the heaters inside the tank so the LOX would vaporize. It was wired with copper wire with Teflon insulation. Teflon/PTFE wire insulation had never been tested at LOX temperatures for flammability. During manufacturing, they did three redundant tests of the controls and thermostat. If failed once on the second attempt, but worked fine on the third try. A command decision was made that 2 out of 3 wasn't bad and the failed second test was an anomaly. Which occurred again on the way to the moon and we all know what happened next. They even made a movie about it.

The longest journey starts with the first step.

Its the broken shoe lace that trips you up when you don't expect it.

The first step is to look for a broken shoe lace.

JUGHNE

Ice, the book of Apollo 13 has a last chapter that describes the entire life of that LOX tank from initial factory construction to its end. Just a series of bad luck?? to missing details during modifications of the testing systems. And no brainers such as the safe max temp of the system being the max read out of thermometer. Couldn't tell if it was over max because that's all the further the scale went on the instrument. Just that part of the book is a good read in itself.

Nrg2014

Here is what has been done.

Manual bleed them..attached pump to add more pressure through system ..removed radiator to check..radiator wasn't blocked...added solution to system to break down anything in the pipes..also tried to reverse bleeding it..When added pump we bypassed the boiler to just force it through the piping

michaelb0315

We replace many heating systems similar to the system you have in your home. We never have an issue with the original piping installed, leading me to believe this problem may have happened when the boiler was replaced. Is it possible they could have reversed the flow of the piping when the boiler was replaced? Are you able to contact the previous home owners and see how long this has been an issue? Best of luck!

Nrg2014

Plumber mentioned that, "Only thing left is to disassemble those lines in the basement and try to force water up those lines and hope that works...but its a all day project which may or may not work.."

Nrg2014

Michael,
If they reversed the flow of the piping wouldn't that affect all radiators, not just the ones on the second floor.

icesailor

JUGHNE said:

Ice, the book of Apollo 13 has a last chapter that describes the entire life of that LOX tank from initial factory construction to its end. Just a series of bad luck?? to missing details during modifications of the testing systems. And no brainers such as the safe max temp of the system being the max read out of thermometer. Couldn't tell if it was over max because that's all the further the scale went on the instrument. Just that part of the book is a good read in itself.

What I read was the actual investigative report from the NASA/FAA (whomever) did to find out why. Not some bogus cover-up that might be in a book. Maybe the book is honest and truthful. It IS a public record.

As I remember, the tank was made by some subsidiary of Cessna Aircraft. Of some company in Kansas or the Midwest. The tank and all the equipment were a well proven design. Every part of the tank and systems had been in space before. It was the manufacturing of the tank and accessories for that part of the flight module that was the problem. The LOX tank was part of the package for a APU Fuel Cell. All the wire inside the fuel cell tank and outside were Teflon insulated. It had a much higher heat rating than normal plastic insulation. No one had ever tested Teflon insulation in a LOX atmosphere. Once the tank was manufactured, it underwent testing to be sure that it met NASA specifications. The heaters and the thermostat that ran the heating elements were all inside the tank. The testing procedures were that three operations of the systems were to be performed to look for failures. All three tests were to be performed and passed to pass the test. Most all Apollo flights were rushed to completion. Without the fuel cell, the flight couldn't go. If I remember, it seems the testing was done late at night, early in the morning. The test consisted of heating whatever liquid was in the tank, monitoring the temperature, and making sure that the thermostat operated properly. Like shutting off and coming back on. The first test procedure was fine. When they ran the test the second time, the thermostat stuck closed. Because it was monitored for the tests, they knew right away that there was a problem. To remove and replace the thermostat from inside the tank was a long and tedious process. The thermostat opened on its own. They ran the test procedures a third time, and the thermostat and heaters worked as expected. It was decided in the moment that the thermostat was OK and the second test was an anomaly. So the Fuel Cell & tank were passed.

There was no onboard monitoring of the fuel cell operation in the command module. The equipment module sat below the LEM/Lunar Excursion Module, the flight capsule sat above all that. After the explosion and subsequent recovery, there was no evidence of what happened because it all burned up on re-entry. NASA did a forensic investigation. There were records that showed the second test anomaly. It was not known until they recreated the thermostat failure and subsequent overheating of the heater wire. That when Teflon insulation got over 700 degrees in a pure oxygen atmosphere, it could cause an explosion. Which it did.

I had two Brothers-In-Laws who worked for NASA on the Gemini and Apollo programs. One was in charge of all programming for the second stage rocket. We discussed the accident at great length. Some lead engineer signed off on the testing. They could have repeated the testing 10 or 20 times. It may have only tripped that one time. Or the next time.

Murphy's Law.

As I remember it.

Is that how they presented it? Fascinating anyway.

If it happened at the moon when they were orbiting, or on the way back, no one would have come back.

JUGHNE

The info in the last book chapter seemed to come from the NASA report. Very descriptive in all that they thought happened. The book was not defending any of the NASA operations. Actually pointed out many flaws in procedure. On many space trips there is a lot of luck, if you will, involved.
Considering the number of passenger/miles traveled the record isn't maybe too bad. The soviets has a much worse track record. A book called "Dragonfly" is about the Muir space station and gets into detail about the Soviet space program. Both sides had their own cowboys. (Test pilots)

I can't find either book, I believe I loaned them; and as has been said it is just like tools, you shouldn't do that if you ever want them back.

michaelb0315

Depending on the tees installed on the piping, the 1st floor may still get hot. It's hard to see in the pictures, but it looks like some are monoflow tees and some are not. I'm just taking a shot in the dark on this one. Lol definitely keep us updated though!

michaelb0315

Also take a good picture of the flow checks for us.

JACQ

If the first floor is heating up properly and is the same pump being used for both floors could it be that their is not enough volume of water in the

billtwocase

If in fact it is a mono-flow, have fun lugging out buckets of water for nothing sludge. You will only purge the main mono-flow line, and not the radiators. You are also introducing more air into the system that way. Use a pony or a wayne pump to purge, then bleed the radiators individually.

icesailor

Its NOT a Monoflow system. It is a direct return. Its had issues. Someone not knowing what they are doing put that hydraulic mining pump on it and it still doesn't work.

You can purge that sucker until all the cows in Vermont move into the milking parlor and are milked.

Its under piped and over pumped.

icesailor

Original post by OP

"" I recently purchased a house built in 1955. It has a mono flow heating system with radiators throughout the house. First floor all radiators work well, ""

So far. all's well.

"" but on the second floor 7 out of 11 radiators do not work. They have been bleed and no air seems to be in system. ""

Do the radiators on the second floor that are lower in height work but not the taller ones? If so, not enough pressure in the system. It must have worked in 1955.
What do you get out of the second floor radiators? Air, water? Nothing? You HAVE to get SOMETHING out of the air vents. If air, you need to vent the air until you get pressurized water. If air comes out and stops to nothing, not enough pressure in the system. If water, and it continues to flow out, there's another issue. You do NOT need that hydraulic mining pump to push water through your system.


"" I have had multiple plumbers over still can't solve problem. ""

WHY?

"" One thing they have all mentioned is that the issue is with the feed side. ""

What was the "Issue" with the Feed Side?

"" One thing that was mentioned was that the mono flow tees need to be replaced. ""

Where are the Monoflow's? I haven't seen any. It looks like a 2-pipe direct return. Further more, I've never seen a bad Monoflow that needed to be replaced unless it broke from freezing up and split.

"" I know I didn't give enough info but has anyone had this type of issue. ""

None that wasn't resolved simply. Especially ones running since 1955.

michaelb0315

Just checking in again to see if you resolved your heating issue. A family member recently gave me a thermal imaging camera that attaches to my iphone. I believe this will also help you troubleshoot your issue. It plugs into the bottom of your Iphone and detects temperature difference. The one I have runs around 250$ and is available at Home Depot. I use it all the time for drain unclogging, frozen/burst pipes, heat loss, and duct work as well. http://www.thermal.com/see_the_unseen.html

I'm not trying to spend your money, just trying to help. LOL

Rich_49

What is the third pipe w/ no circ on that return piping ? What model #s are on the new and older circ ? Could this be an " I have no idea how to read a pump curve issue " on the part of whom replaced this circ? Really want to know what that third line is though .
Can almost guarantee that too small tank is not charged properly to the cold fill pressure , good eyes Ice for an old timer .
Are the upstairs radiators that do work nearer or farther from the boiler location ?

rick in Alaska

I am with Rich. What is that last pipe on the return line?
I would try shutting off that valve and the valve on the pump to the left just to see what that does. I do not see any check valves on the system, so am wondering if the monster pump is just powering back through the other pump, and short circuiting the boiler.
What is the pressure when the pumps come on? With the way the pumps are pumping in to the boiler, when the pumps come on, the boiler gauge should show a rise in pressure. If not, maybe the pumps aren't working, or are short circuiting the boiler. Something to check anyway.
Rick

billtwocase

sludge, you must one those internet site trolls. Go back to your checker game. I have over 32 years under my belt, how many do you have?

Rich_49

Sludge ,
Were you aware that water is made up of Oxygen and Hydrogen ? I suppose you can eliminate all oxygen from the system the very second you have determined it is all gone . Just to clarify what I am talking about you may want to view soem educational stuff from other sources before beginning debate .

billtwocase

Thanks Rich, was wondering if he knew water as H2O, and what it represents

Abracadabra

If you look over all of sludge's posts, about 90% of them are trollish. It's a new account that was registered about 2 days ago. Wish the forum allowed a way to "ignore" a certain user. Maybe @DanHolohan needs to be made aware of this troll.

KC_Jones

Abracadabra said:

If you look over all of sludge's posts, about 90% of them are trollish. It's a new account that was registered about 2 days ago. Wish the forum allowed a way to "ignore" a certain user. Maybe @DanHolohan needs to be made aware of this troll.

Definitely a troll...it's painfully obvious. Agree on the ignore function. Until such time we will just have to ignore the old fashioned way.

billtwocase

as soon as one disappears, another troll shows up. Too bad new accounts can't be screened

billtwocase

sad thing is that people that come here for advice, get mixed signals when morons instigate

billtwocase

I think Dan axed him. All his posts are gone?

KC_Jones

Looks that way...have to see if he comes back with a different username.

Abracadabra

If he does return and speaks up it certainly won't be difficult to notice him

Jeff Elston

I don't see a monoflow tee set up?

billtwocase

I say zone the 2nd floor off. Balancing is always a problem this way

j a_2

What was his user name. I will be sure to boycott as well

billtwocase

sludge

earl burnermann

So far, from what I've read, no air is coming out during bleeding. And if bled long enough hot water will come out but the radiator will not stay hot.

Sounds to me like a broken shut off valve (didn't see one, but may be in the upside down picture.). The valve handle may be missing. Many times, when these valves break, they will just keep turning and turning. So the best way to check this is to hold on to the pipe coming from the valve and turn it slowly. If it's a broken valve you will feel the heat come up when you get the valve set in the open position.

When bleeding problem mono-flow terminals I was told to shut the circ off and bleed them. By shutting of the circ the air stops and comes to rest at the highest point. Hopefully that's where the bleeder is installed.

Weezbo

Oh Get a bigger pump philosophy.....nah all that will do is cause cavatation sort of your very own air making machine..great for destroying impellers by the way.. I think Dan had a real good point . let me roll it out to you like this you just inherited the place that fact means you may be on equal footing with any of us as at least you have the advantage of being there , however like us you do not have the all amazing seeing eye in your tool box . Mine is in my old one ton at rest in the hillsides . You may have another thermostat hiding somewhere or it may have been removed . I am looking from the typical on ear angle of the dangle and see two circs . This alone gives rise to a certain credulity to the SWAG that you have or may have had another thermostat.
check the piping arrangement which pump will win?
The water may come out of a return to somewhere buh if the supply and return are both tied into a boiler return you wont see any circulation either. Like another person said The new piping arrangement may have a snafu.

Weezbo.

" A plumber also connected a hose to a pump in order to try and push city water through with a cleaner to try and break a clog up. His exact words were "it seems as if some of the pipes are closed off." Which they can't be.
Ok ... how about the pipes both being connected to the return ?
if two branch pipes come to that copper on the return it would mean that the cold water return is unable to carry enough heat to cause "Ghost flow" .
If there is a check and the supply branch and return branch were reversed you are not likely to get flow against a check valve either.

icesailor

@Weezbo:

In an earlier post, it was mentioned that the other pump is for another zone. I believe that the "other" pump is a 007. In a photo, there is a dead Taco 110 "Red Baron" type of 3 piece circulator on the floor. The circulator for this zone, the main zone, has been replaced with a hydraulic mining pump. To solve a problem that it didn't solve.

I'll have to look carefully again but I never noticed any other Black Steel heating pipes behind the two with the tees. There is a PVC 2" drainage pipe, and another one showing over the wall with cast iron bell and spigot soil pipe.

I'll have to look again.

If there is another pipe, it could be the supply or return of a split system, and when the boiler was changed, the piping was done wrong. Maybe they eliminated the balancing cocks. Its hard to solve complicated problems with limited photos