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Main vent replacement- add others somewhere?

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2

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  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
    edited January 2015
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    I could try to instruct you on skimming because I've read my manual and read other's descriptions of it and probably get it right, but it's better that others who have actually performed it advise you. Check your Peerless Installation and Operation Manual online though (if you don't have paper copy).

    I suspect that you have issues with water quality (due to the surging and priming), but I think you probably have a problem with proper return of condensate from your radiators. You need to make sure everything is pitched properly and that there are no sags where condensate can pool up. As I said before, it is very important that the current true waterline in the boiler never drops below the top of the close nipple in the hartford loop. Use a water level to transfer the top of the close nipple around to your sight glass and put a mark there, so you can see that it doesn't ever go below that.
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    May be also an issue with lots of wet steam going up into the system too, which is made much worse by dirty oily water, but that issue with the header and equalizer ain't helping matters at all, sorry to say. But having said that, even if wet steam makes it up there, it should be able to return readily, if everything were correct.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited January 2015
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    I usually let my boiler run a cycle so that the water is hot. After letting it sit for about five minutes, open the skim valve and slowly fill the boiler up with water until it starts to flow out of the skim port. adjust your water flow so that the water coming out of the skim port is a very slow trickle, less that the diameter of a pencil and let it run for several hours. I usually attach a garden hose to mine after I have the flow down to where I want it and let it run into a floor drain for 6 or 7 hours. A way to test the water is, after it has skimmed for several hours, put some in a pan and boil it on the stove. If you get large bubbles, it needs to skim somemore. I don't bother with that. It will be good after several hours of skimming.
    I don't see anything that would suggest you have a problem with your returns and your water level looks like it is at least 2 to 3 inches above the Hardford loop so that is good. The 3" header, 26" above the water line is fine. I would have put it higher since there is room but it should not give you a problem. I think the install manual says a minimum of 24"
    If you get the opportunity to change those 90 degree elbows on the equalizer to 45's and angle the equalizer, do so but I suspect it will work the way it is.
    Just do a good skim.
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    There is no issue with the height of his returns but since he said above that the level continues to drop to about an inch from the bottom of the sight glass, that is not normal in my experience and I also have practically the same boiler (63-04L). When it is 1" above the bottom of the sight glass, is it still not below the top of the HarTford Loop? I doubt it.
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
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    An inch above the bottom of the sight glass is 26 in off the ground, and the bottom of the close nipple is 25.25in off the ground.

    I'm going to begin skimming now. Should be fun. Good excuse to enjoy a glass of bourbon. Thank you all for the help so far. I'm sure I will have more questions when I get the vents on Monday and when I replace the lwco.
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    You have to measure to the TOP of the close nipple (not the bottom). Also, since it now sounds like you Do have a problem there with the Hartford Loop when the water gets that low, you need to do a more careful measurement with a liquid level because the floor is often not level.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited January 2015
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    Captain Who said:

    There is no issue with the height of his returns but since he said above that the level continues to drop to about an inch from the bottom of the sight glass, that is not normal in my experience and I also have practically the same boiler (63-04L). When it is 1" above the bottom of the sight glass, is it still not below the top of the HarTford Loop? I doubt it.

    When he gets it skimmed. the water level won't be 1"from the bottom of the sight glass and the installation Manual says a couple inches below the Normal Water Level, not a couple inches below the lowest possible operating water level.

  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    I didn't say the Hartford Loop was improperly installed (height wise). I said that when the water gets low enough to expose it, that will be a problem, so he should mark that level on his sight glass. Then when he is observing the system he can listen for banging, put a stethoscope on the return to hear if the water is properly flowing into the boiler, etc..

    Of course I hope that skimming cures all of his problems but that is a lengthy repetetive process and will probably take weeks to complete.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    jch1 said:

    An inch above the bottom of the sight glass is 26 in off the ground, and the bottom of the close nipple is 25.25in off the ground.



    I'm going to begin skimming now. Should be fun. Good excuse to enjoy a glass of bourbon. Thank you all for the help so far. I'm sure I will have more questions when I get the vents on Monday and when I replace the lwco.

    ENJOY!
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
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    @MarkS‌ are you saying that you wouldn't try replacing the lwco or try modifying the existing one to limit the intermittent level check?
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Mark's comment was in response to Captain Who's suggestion that maybe Mark could consider what it would take to modify the CycleGard.
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
    edited January 2015
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    Are there any other places besides supplyhouse that sell the SafGard?
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    You want to replace it with a SafGard, right?
    There are multiple new ones on ebay for around $70.00. (I know we don't discuss prices on this site but....)
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
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    Fred said:

    You want to replace it with a SafGard, right?
    There are multiple new ones on ebay for around $70.00. (I know we don't discuss prices on this site but....)

    Yeah, you're right, sorry. And I saw those, but was hesitant to go with such an unknown seller as compared to supplyhouse.

    With the new 0-3psi gauge, should I connect it to brass or copper fittings? I read someone say brass, but I think copper is correct.

    Thanks!
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    jch1 said:

    Fred said:

    You want to replace it with a SafGard, right?
    There are multiple new ones on ebay for around $70.00. (I know we don't discuss prices on this site but....)

    Yeah, you're right, sorry. And I saw those, but was hesitant to go with such an unknown seller as compared to supplyhouse.

    With the new 0-3psi gauge, should I connect it to brass or copper fittings? I read someone say brass, but I think copper is correct.

    Thanks!
    I wouldn't buy anything used on ebay but new ones are a pretty safe bet. I've gotten a number of items, vents, Pressuretrols, LWCO's new from ebay with no issues at all. Besides if you use Paypal, they cover the product to be what it is advertised to be.

    As Hatterasguy says, brass is the way to go.
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
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    Anybody have comments regarding whether I should go with the SafGard 450, 550, or 650? Specifically, it looks like the lower models either don't have a test function 450) or require the user to manually reset the LWCO if it trips (550).
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    I would use the model with the auto reset. Most use the manual reset when a second LWCO is required.
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
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    Right, I need the 450 (or 650). I was considering the 650 because of the test feature, but I am not certain that it is necessary.
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
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    Wow. Not sure how I missed that. I was about to order a 650 on ebay at a significantly cheaper price. Thank you and all those who helped- I should be in great shape in a week or so.
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    If you want to have a digital thermostat now or in the future which is powered off of the 24VAC transformer, I believe you should switch to the 24V model, so that the SafGard doesn't cut off power to the primary side of the transformer, in the event of a low water condition. Having said that though, it is more critical with the CycleGard though because of the intermittent testing feature. Perhaps it really doesn't matter in your case. If your thermostat has backup batteries it shouldn't be an issue. This was one of the things that gave me problems when I switched to the White Rodgers 1F97 digital thermostat with the remote sensor feature activated, because in order to have the remote sensor activated you had to power the thermostat with 24 VAC.......couldn't use the batteries. At that time I switched from the CycleGard CG450 (120V) to the CycleGard CG400 (24 V). Unfortunately, the plumbing supply house didn't inform me that there were two different models: CG400-1090 (10min, 90secs) and CG400-2060 (20min, 60 secs). I got stuck with the 10 min version and I would be much happier with the 20 min one.
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
    edited January 2015
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    You're now asking about things in which my knowledge is extremely limited, but I think I know what you are getting at. I actually posted a thread a few months ago because my Ecobee smart thermostat would shut off whenever the intermittent check occurred. Ultimately, I believe this was fixed by the contractor installing a relay of some sort so power is not cut off. Again, I'm not sure how they did it, but all I know is that they fixed it and the thermostat stays on at all times.
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    Oh yeah I remember that thread. Was I the one who suggested that fix? The 120V CycleGard is really only for oil burners that have a 120V burner valve. The SmartCycle only works by attaching to the burner hot and the 120V CycleGard wants to be attached only to a oil burner valve, not a 24V gas valve. That's another way the incompetent installer messed me up (previous owner hired).....by installing the wrong model of CycleGard. Took me a little while to figure all this out. The support at Hydrolevel and Peerless wasn't much help.
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
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    You probably were the person who suggested the fix. In all honesty, I'm still not sure what exactly they did. I just know that it works now haha.
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    @Hatterasguy - OK thank you. Couldn't do that with the CycleGard. I just checked the instructions and I see that you are correct (no surprise to you :))

    http://www.hydrolevel.com/new/pages/pdf_files/Model450Instructions.pdf
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
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    It sounds like on mine, instead of installing a separate relay, they could have simply wired the controls differently?
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    Yeah nice of those @#$%^ at Hydrolevel to not include that in the CG450 CycleGard instructions. I still would've had to get the 24V model in order to use the SmartCycle feature though, anyway (which most installers seem blissfully unaware of or indifferent to).
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    I'm not sure. I still needed an isolation relay on my thermostat even with the 24 V model CycleGard. It was still getting interruptions from the other controls.
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    Yeah you never know. But this was what scared me off from trying that (from the instructions for the CG450):

    Connect “BURNER” terminal on the
    CycleGard control to the orange
    burner wire (120VAC) located
    under the oil burner transformer
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
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    So I got the three Gorton 2s on there today, and I think my vents may be stuck closed due to the temperature. Is there any way that I can confirm that this is occurring? Would I have to just wait for another call from the thermostat and see if they are open? I tapped on them and they aren't rattling, so I think they may be closed.
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 452
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    I have been using an automotive inspection mirror to see if the vents are closed. If you don't see any fogging of the mirror then the vent is definitely closed..........assuming steam is present of course.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    I don't think the Gorton's rattle when you tap them like the Hoffmans do. You should be able to hold a tissue up to them when the boiler starts up and it should flutter. don't wait too long after the boiler starts or they will close, like they should. I am very doubtful that all 3 would be stuck closed. You don't want to insulate the tree or antler that you mounted them on as that may cause them to close sooner than desired.
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
    edited January 2015
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    If the vent doesn't reopen prior to the next heating cycle, does that mean all the air will be forced out of the radiator vents? Maybe that's why one of the installers just recommended two Hoffman 75s due to them operating at higher temperatures.

    Does anybody know whether Gorton 1s open/close at different temperatures than the Gorton 2?
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    If they don't open by the next cycle, then yes, it will be like not having vents on there at all. They do close faster than the Hoffman 75's but if you can get them up further away from the Main they should open between cycles.
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
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    I'll have to check it out this evening. After I put the three G2s on and fired everything up, it took probably 5-6 minutes for the piping near the vents to heat up (at the end of the dry return). Later that evening, one of my radiator vents (varivalve) released air louder than I have ever heard before. I went over to it, adjusted it to wide open, and even more air was pushed out. I'm thinking that 1) I probably ruined this vent and 2) this happened because the gortons were closed.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Both the Gorton #1 and #2 close at the same temperature 140 degrees, according to the spec sheet. Some say they close around 130 but in any case, it appears they are spec'd the same as far as temp is concerned.
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
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    Ah okay, thanks. Then I plan on returning one Gorton and replacing it with a Hoffman 75. I know this will result in less venting, but it will serve as a "safety net" should the Gortons actually be closed when the next cycle begins. Unfortunately, I don't have much room to extend the vent stack away from the return.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    No, the Gortons (or any vent) should be open by the next cycle. Are you sure you have your Thermostat set for 1 cycle per hour? If the boiler is running a 20 ot even a 30 minute cycle, the Mains should be cool enough to allow the vents to open before the next cycle.
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
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    I'll have to check. It's the Ecobee SmartSi. That brings up another question- if I do have it set to 1 cycle per hour, and it gets to my desired temp, but due to poor house insulation (built in 1920, some original windows, etc) it drops back down in temperature quickly, what will happen? Will the thermostat just wait until the next hour begins and let it get colder and colder?
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    I don't know how the Ecobee works but on mine, 1 cycle per hour actually means 1 cycle per hour. If your heat loss is that radical, I would think it would have a hard time getting to temp in the first place. Maybe you can try 2 cycles per hour if need be but I wouldn't do more cycles than that.
    I have a house built in 1902 all original windows, insulation in the attic only (but it is a brick house, 3 layers thick). I have mine set for 1 cycle per hour and have no problem with that, except last winter, a couple days when it got to 20 below with wind chills to 40 below. My boiler really struggled to heat the house. I acctually had to supliment the boiler (a couple hours each of those 2 days) with the two forced air furnaces I have installed for Central air. (1 serves the 1st floor the other serves the 2nd and 3rd floors). First and only time that has happened in 24 years.
  • jch1
    jch1 Member Posts: 200
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    Maybe I should rethink my choice of thermostats because the Ecobee only allows you to change the minimum system downtime, not the actual CPH. I know the VisionPRO 8000 gets good reviews on this board. Any other suggestions?

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