WTGO-3 Options?

mpking

Background:
I have a Weil Mclain WTGO-3 (circa 2005) with the DHW coil. Christmas day, I'm told by two different oil burner service companies that the coil has developed a hole (crack, etc) and was allowing the city water into the boiler water, pushing the pressure up and popping off the overflow. Merry Christmas.

C'est la vie. A several hundred dollars later, the Coil is capped off, and I now have a separate hotwater heater.

Currently I primarily heat my house with wood pellets. I also have a Heat Pump inside my AC units that is good down to 0F (obviously not efficient at that temp). At best, the Oil Burner would be my 3rd option, "my emergency heat".

Question:
One burner tech said to switch the burner over to cold start (he was not sure how to do so on my unit), he did adjust the temps down to 120 min (lowest setting) / 160 Max

Second burner tech said don't switch to cold start, as the seals will develop leaks when it cools down.

I never plan on running the boiler, as the wood pellets are much cheaper to heat with than oil (even with this current price dip down to 2.35 a gallon).

I don't want to cause a larger problem to save a buck, but I don't want to pay more in oil than I have to.

Advice?

icesailor

A new coil would have cost far less than your new water heater.

Heat your whole house to 70 degrees evenly with wood pellets and compare the cost.

I did it years ago with coal. All I got for the effort was a PO'ed wife because of all the coal dust/ash, parts of the house like a sweat box, and other areas good for cold storage of vegetables, and a lot for "cheap" bags of coal. That far outweighed the cost of comfort with oil.

My wife still remarks about "That Nasty Coal".

How many BTU's in a 40# bag of wood pellets/horse stall pellets?

139,000 BTU's in a 8+# gallon bucket of oil at $2.32 #2 oil.

icesailor

I was basing it on weight, Nat Gas has no basic weight.

Wood pellets have a greater weight than oil or Nat Gas. I know. When I go to the grain store to get stall pellets for the cat box, I have to carry them in the house. A lot cheaper by the pound than kitty litter. Works better too.

icesailor

I have no idea. Kitty Litter doesn't burn. Stall/wood pellets do. I don't burn them. My issue is humidity and cooling. Stall pellets don't keep me cool. If I need heat, I have 9 KW worth of heat strips Last year, I never used them. Its 81 degrees outside now and the humidity is 45%. If the humidity goes up much more, I'll shut the front door and turn on the AC.

Robert O'Brien

#2 heating oil is 13% lighter per gallon than water

icesailor

Fresh Water: 8.33 # Per Gallon
#2 Fuel Oil: 7.2 # Per Gallon.

MikeL_2

Will a low limit setting of 120° increase the chances of producing corrosive flue gas condensate?

icesailor

Anything below 140 degrees increases the chances of condensation exponentially.

120 degrees is less so than 100 degrees.

And makes the boiler get dirty much faster and harder to clean properly.

MikeL_2

Thanks, Ice. Just want to make sure we are advertising accurate information.........

mpking

icesailor said:

A new coil would have cost far less than your new water heater.
...
How many BTU's in a 40# bag of wood pellets/horse stall pellets?

139,000 BTU's in a 8+# gallon bucket of oil at $2.32 #2 oil.

I know I could have replaced the coil. See the math below for why I didn't.

Before I entertain this tangent, The majority of you agree that I'm better of spending ~ $250 a year in #2 fuel oil per year (Plus annual cleanings), for a heat source I want to only use in emergencies, than having the system shut down, possible only being fired once or twice a year (more to prove it still works)?

This is my primary concern, not wasting money (by burning oil for no reason) but not being a spendthrift (Setting myself up for buying a new boiler) by shutting it off. Honestly, if I could just shut the service switch off, i'd love it.

Now for the tangent.

Most source agree on 8500-8700 BTU per pound. Lets go with 8500.
using this handy dandy calculator:
http://www.woodpellets4me.com/pellets-calculator.html
(Yes it's a wood pellet site, find an oil one that lists wood pellets)

Change the values to reflect my current prices (I've paid $240 a ton for pellets for the last three years, my current oil price is 2.35 a gallon delivered, a 4 year low, I paid 3.50/gal this summer when I put in 150 gal)
I'm saving money (not as much this year, but still less money than I've spent on oil)

From a realistic point of view, I've exclusively heated my entire house with wood pellets for 5 years. For the last 5 years, I've had to buy approx 130 gallons of oil (the last 3 years I just tell them to put $500 worth in, I have a 275 Gallon Tank.) every 9-10 months.

So,
$480 to heat my entire house per season in wood pellets.
$~550 to just make hot water.

My house is well insulated, but I'd imagine that it would be more than $480 a season in oil. Most people I've spoken to in my area fill up every 2 months. (I don't have a valid datapoint here, since the only time I heated my house with oil, my house was un-insulated, and I went thru a full tank in 3 weeks)

I realize i'm unique. My house is only 900 SqFeet, is well insulated, and has a fairly open floor plan. I know pellets isn't for everyone.

icesailor

"" Take a look at paragraph 4.2 ""

If this was two years ago and I was still cleaning boilers, I would have used that article for paper towels after I cleaned what of the crud off my hands with hand cleaner.

Oil and gas are NOT the same product. Gas still condenses at 120 degrees F and oil is universally considered to condensate seriously at 140 degrees. When oil condenses at low temperatures, unburned particulates mix with water vapor to make a nasty paste that is very difficult to clean. Gas boilers just fill up with soot. Which can make them unusable because of the difficulty cleaning them.

The OP had an unusual condition and he admits that. He has a 900 sq, ft house. My FL Condo is 1,400. If my wife and I lived in a 900 sq. ft house, and we burned pellets for heat, and she needed to go out and get more pellets to run the stove, there would be serious discussions about the division of the house. Her suggestion would be that I could have the outside and she would have the inside. With my filling the oil tank and she having total control of the thermostat. When we burned coal, she never not once carried a bucket of coal into the house. And like I said before, she still complains about the dust and ash. And how hot the living room but how cold the bathroom was when she used the shower. Understand that my wife is no shrinking violet when it comes to cold. She still trudges out daily to take care of her horse. When we burned coal (0ver 20 years ago), she trudged out to the barn in wind and blowing rain or freezing sleet or snow, when that Irish lass came in from the cold, she wanted it warm. As warm as she wanted it. At one time, we had 22 horses. Not a complaint about caring for the horses. Lots of complaints about being cold.

mpking

To bring this full circle.

I called Weil Mclain, and asked them about converting the boiler to coldstart, and if it would leak if it did.

The advice from them was the boiler is designed to be used in coldstart situations, and will not leak from this reason, so that's a yes. They also said it should be set for 160/180 to prevent condensation, that the current 120/160 would cause longterm damage.

icesailor

Does anyone read and understand what they read or hear?

Weil-McLain said the boiler could run from a "cold Start" and it wouldn't cause the sections to push apart. I can't remember anyone saying that his would happen. Then it goes on to say that Weil-McLain wanted their boilers to run between 160degrees to 189 degrees. What?

The experience among many is that 140 degrees keeps condensation from forming. That gives you a 20 to 60 degree differential to play with. Or add boiler protection.

I wonder who you talked to at Weil-McLain? Because they just eliminated their manufacturers technical support division as a cost cutting measure and turned all tech support to their manufacturers reps. Which I find that some can be like teachers. Or trade mechanics.

"Those that can, do. And those that can't, become teachers or building inspectors". Or technical support for Manufacturers reps. Some are great. Some not so.

You obviously haven't been a soot sucker as long as I have been.

mpking

icesailor said:

Does anyone read and understand what they read or hear?

Weil-McLain said the boiler could run from a "cold Start" and it wouldn't cause the sections to push apart. I can't remember anyone saying that his would happen.

Dude, that was the purpose of my entire question.

Read my original question.

mpking said:

Question:
One burner tech said to switch the burner over to cold start (he was not sure how to do so on my unit), he did adjust the temps down to 120 min (lowest setting) / 160 Max

Second burner tech said don't switch to cold start, as the seals will develop leaks when it cools down.

That was my main concern. All the tangents about Hotwater / pellets / boiler temps was stuff that other people brought up.
I didn't care about that.
I just wanted to know if the boiler would leak if I switched it to coldstart.

I think Hatterasguy nailed the answer. Sometimes they leak, sometimes they don't.

rick in Alaska

We have a lot of Weil Mclain boilers around here and almost all are cold start. The only thing I have ever seen leak on one is if someone put dielectric unions on them. Those unions will leak like a sieve when cold.
Boilers will definitely condense until they get back above the condensing point, but in my experience, I don't really see many with issues. I believe it is because they are so over sized that they will get up to temperature very quickly, and not give the condensate much time to cause issues.
Personally, I would turn it off until needed, or wire it in for cold start.
Rick

icesailor

@rick in Alaska:
@mpking:

You make my brain hurt from thinking so hard.

The difference is a small volume water system on cold start and a large volume water system. A system with a WGO-4 and less than 10 gallons of series looped baseboard will heat up quickly and go above 140 degrees. The same boiler connected to a system full of large cast iron radiators that holds 50 gallons of water, will run below 140 degrees for far longer and condense.

How do I know. Well, I had a lot of customers that kept their heat on all winter set to 40 or 50 degrees (to "save" something). They had drive by caretakers. I knew that flowing water in a system won't freeze, so I set the "LO" as low as it would go and if the boiler went off, the circulator would run. Much like a cold start boiler. But with the thermostat set that low, the system temperature gets low, and when the burner comes on and starts pumping cold water into the return, the pumps never stop until the call is satisfied, and the boiler condenses until the return water gets to 140 degrees. That means that not until the water leaving the boiler is 160 degrees, the incoming return water is still below 140 degrees. You should have seen the filth in them.

ODR was even worse. Anytime the OAT only needed system temps below 140 degrees, they condense constantly.

The OP has a system with two floors of old cast iron radiators. That's the kiss of death on a cast iron boiler. And the building will be all uneven with the heat.

Some get all twisted by my avocation of 4 way Mixers with boiler protection control like the Taco "I" series mixer. Let that system run at whatever temperature at whatever it wants. Keep that boiler warm and toasty. No sweat. WTGO/WGO's are bomb proof. An "I" Series valve is a lot cheaper than a rotted out boiler because no one could be bothered to clean it properly every year.

I don't/didn't have to think of every reason when I saw something better when I saw it. Just that it was better.

Like Columbus sailing over the Horizon. Neither one of us fell off the edge of the earth.

rick in Alaska

Ice.
Good point on the mass issue. I forget where you guys are and don't take that in to consideration. Also didn't "absorb" the full details of the original post about the radiators. Around here everything is low water content, such as small radiant zones or baseboard. I do see your point if the boiler was seeing a lot of radiators as it would have a much harder time recovering.
So, I guess the real answer is as usual, "it depends" , based on different factors.
Do love hearing your thought on these different posts as you do have some very good answers.How about you take your experience now that you are retired and write a book about useful shortcuts and techniques? Would be good reading.
Rick

mpking

icesailor said:

@mpking:
The OP has a system with two floors of old cast iron radiators. That's the kiss of death on a cast iron boiler. And the building will be all uneven with the heat.

Um... No I don't.

I have a 900sqft, single family, single floor, with baseboards.

But I see your point.

icesailor

Maybe you don't. Someone was asking about a old building with old cast iron radiators on both floors.

The bigger the volume of water, the bigger the chance of problems.

Tony Massi

Cold start a WTGO 3 boiler you will have gaskets leaking and also it a 3 section boiler that means it only has 2 flue passages. The front flue passage is very tight that only leave one other.
What's going to happen once the boiler goes cold for a while there will be any soot or scale that has formed on the cast iron to fall off blocking the flue passage sections.
Wait till next season when you call for heat you'll have back pressure from the boiler. Smoke, exhaust fumes etc.
Your better leaving the boiler at a warm temperature until it calls for heat. If you have a L8124A aqua stat I would go 120/180.
The boiler will stay at the lower temperature of 120 until it calls for heat. Then go up to the higher temperature of 180.
If its a L4081B you'll have to lower it yourself when you don't need the heat anymore. It might seem like a waste of oil but its better then wrecking your boiler or filling your house with smoke.

icesailor

Anyone that can clean a cold start WGO-3 boiler in under an hour didn't clean it.

Tony Massi

Two door American Standard Boiler with a Beckett.
Life was so much simpler then..............

icesailor

And if you could get 80% on a Bacharach "Wet Kit", you were living large.

RobG

Since the OP is not even using it, I would suggest leaving it as a warm start and just flipping the breaker until he needs to use it. I would not keep a boiler warm that I didn't use.

icesailor

Most folks do.

And when you are ready to turn it back on, get it cleaned. The expansion and contraction of the boiler over the summer will make the soot fall off in sheets and leave the boiler in like new condition.

Unlike Cold Start boilers which will be like someone poured concrete inside the boiler passageways.

RobG

Ice, were you agreeing with me or disagreeing? I couldn't quite understand.

icesailor

I was agreeing with you.

My comment was pointed out at how easy it is to do a good and thorough cleaning on an oil boiler that has been shut off for the summer. The soot/scale falls off in sheets and when it does, it looks like they just shook the sand from the casting. Unlike what you find on a normal Cold Start boiler. You can wear out a brand new Soot Saw.

Tony Massi

What's the difference cold start or off at the switch for the summer. No respectable Oil Burner Tech would ever tell a customer to shut the boiler off for the summer. That's a sure way for a smoke call in the fall.

icesailor

Customers/homeowners do it all the time. What's the difference if you or I suggest it or they just do it anyway.

What about all the steamer owners with gas or electric water heaters? Once the weather warms up, the boiler never runs again. I drained houses and the boiler never ran all winter. When I filled the system and flipped the switches, they started like they had been running forever. They might have been a little hazy for a while, but they got over it.

Besides, some "expert" on some DIY energy saving forum will tell them to do it in an instant moment in New York.

Especially the ones who have the cheap gene and won't pay someone to come and service and clean their cold start boiler. Because if it takes more than an hour, their being ripped off. So says the DIY Forum "Expert".

Tony Massi

You know the saying I can't see it from my house.
Like you said you can advise them but they will do what they want to do anyway. Every body has a different opinion.
The roof only leaks when it rains same thing applies to the boiler in the summer.

icesailor

Yes, but you can fix a boiler in the rain.

You can't fix a roof in the rain. Maybe you can locate the leak from inside, but you can't really go outside and fix it.

Tony Massi

Unless you work for Petro than you are not permitted to work on equipment in the rain.

icesailor

The Self-Employed can and do whatever they are willing to do. As long as they get paid for it.

I might have dug up a sewer outside in the rain if I had to. I'd be considering cleaning a boiler or two as "inside work" and that's where I would be. In a warm dry cellar.

Kakashi

So you had two service technicians from two companies come out on Christmas day and you're worried about money?

You're screwed either way you go...my wife can freeze but, my cat and dog like the heat. I would do whatever it takes to keep them happy and warm.
9 degrees on Wednesday in New Jersey...
If you aren't going to run your boiler, your oil tank may start to condenses, water will accumulate at the bottom of the tank. Water will cause rust. Rust will cause problems...

mpking

Kakashi said:

So you had two service technicians from two companies come out on Christmas day and you're worried about money?

One technician was called on Christmas day, and arrived the day after christmas at 9am. He charged me $95 dollars to tell me the coil was busted, and to shut all the water off going to/from the boiler / Hotwater coil. He also offered the phone number of a plumber who could install an electric hot water heater (after quoting me over 1500-2000 dollars install a new coil, and that it would take over two weeks).

Three plumbers were called for estimates on installing electric hotwater heaters (and the hybrid heatpump hotwater heater I ended up with).
Two OTHER oil burner service companies were called to give me quotes, ranging for replacing the coil, to doing a hot standby tank, to replacing the entire boiler with a new gas unit.

Kakashi said:

If you aren't going to run your boiler, your oil tank may start to condenses, water will accumulate at the bottom of the tank. Water will cause rust. Rust will cause problems...

Got any reference material on that? (on not running the boiler, I know water in the tank is a receipe for a "Very Bad Day™"). Not accusing you of fear-mongering, but I fail to see how not running the boiler would accelerate this process. If water was to condense inside the tank (which would require the tank to undergo a rapid temperature change), wouldn't be more a function of how full the oil tank is? (IE how much water saturated air is in the tank)

icesailor

What are these people doing?

"If they call you on the phone, they want to spend money".

If they had called me, there is no way that I wouldn't have left there without giving someone hot water, by some way or how. Who are these people working for? Their competition? Someone suggested a "Hybrid Water Heater" and hooked them up with someone to do it? This is what happens when you do all your shopping on with the Internet Supply Houses. I'd have trotted right down to my local wholesaler who I trade with. If he didn't have a coil on the shelf, he would have had one at a different store or picked up one for me. Or taken one out of a Weil-McLain boiler in the building. Or I picked up a electric and installed it. Unless the person is a PITA. In which case, I wish them Health, Happiness & Long Distance. And happy to be gone.

Too many variables here.

Kakashi

Common sense? If you don't believe it, leave a cold glass out.
I know it won't happen right away...20-70 years underground and it will add up. Your tank is open to the atmosphere, it will happen.
It's only okay to use fear to get food or caffeine. Assume the worst and hope for the best.
If you want to keep tabs on it get water testing paste.