Old man sleeping by the ocean

bvaughn76

Is the best way I can describe the noises my formerly quiet single pipe steam system is currently making. I bought this house back in September and this is my first time living with Steam Heat. My dad is a retired union Pipe Fitter so I grew up around heating and refrigeration, know my way around central air and forced heat, but not so much on steam.

Had the boiler serviced, LWCO was confirmed operational. The house had some stuck air vents and leaking valves, another leaking pipe coming through the floor so I was losing water regularly. Sometimes faster than other times. The LWCO failed on one of those faster times and I found the boiler cooking it self. Let it cool, filled it with water and it seemed to be fine. Thought I dodged a bullet, but I didn't realize it at the time it cracked above the water line. I replaced a bunch of valves and air vents and the cracked pipe and felt I closed up all the leaks and the system was working well. I even repitched a return and got rid of some banging. The system was very quiet.

So, after continually needing to fill the boiler day after day, I got suspicious and realized that the boiler was leaking steam out the top, right up my chimney. Guess I did not make it unscathed from my LWCO failure. The boiler got replaced. We put a slightly smaller boiler in (172k btu input to 160k), Slant Fin Galaxy. Everything seemed to go fine. The new boiler makes steam way faster than the old one did. That night or the night after I started hearing the ocean sounds and noticed that my formerly quiet vents were making a lot of air noises. The heat will come on and things are fairly normal. A few minutes after you initially notice the vents venting normally, the vents start breathing and then shortly after that, you hear the ocean wave sound of water sloshing back and forth. It wakes my 8mo pregnant (with twins) wife up and then I am in trouble.

I had the plumber out today to check it out. He noticed that the return on the main was siphoning water, it got hot immediately after the boiler fired. He is coming out next week to try and make corrections. He's great to work with, and we are open to thoughts and ideas.

STEAM DOCTOR

Hard to see 100 percent from pics. Looks like your header ends in a bullhead T. Result will be water in the header will not seperate properly from the steam and will carry out to the system. In addition, it appears that the header is pitched back to the boiler. Header should pitch toward the equalizer.

Fred

Definitely looks like the Header is pitched the wrong way. Not much visable from these pictures. Can't see where/how the mains are connected. Mains should pitch away from the boiler. Make sure you have enough Main Venting at the end of each Main, after the last radiator run-out. A rule of thumb is the equalivent of 1 Gorton #2 for every 20 feet of 2 inch Main.
Given this is the first season for this boiler, I would suggest the boiler probably needs another skimming (if it was even skimmed the first time). When the boiler is running, do you see a lot of bounce in the water in the sight glass? Are there bubbles or water droplets on the upper half of the sight glass? Those are good indicators that there is residual oil (from the inside of the new boiler block and new piping) that needs to be skimmed off. The water in the sight glass looks like it needs a skim. Is there a Skim port on the Boiler? I don't see one. I see a spigot next to your sight glass, about half way up but the skim port needs to be above the water line. If you don't have one, have the plumber/installer put one in. You will need that from time to time over the life of the boiler, especially after any piping repairs.
Make sure all the Mains and radiator run-outs are properly pitched (Mains towards the returns, Radiator runs back towards the Mains) and make sure all of your radiators have a slight pitch back towards the inlet pipe. You can use shims or almost anyting to raise the end opposite the inlet a bit.

KC_Jones

Agreed unless it's the angle of the picture that header looks pitched wrong. Also was everything repiped when the boiler was replaced or did they just tie into some of the existing piping. The Hartford loop and piping above it look somewhat original and then the header of the new boiler is piped into and old "header" of sorts that is attached to the system. A few more pictures might help clarify this. The supply to the main should come off the TOP of the header not the side as it looks in that picture. What size tapping is on top of the boiler? It is supposed to be 2 1/2" pipe (measure 2 7/8" OD) according to the manual it looks small in those pics, but can't always tell from a picture. What pressure is the pressuretrol set at? Was a full EDR calculation done for the new boiler sizing?

bvaughn76

Thank you for the feedback already. I'll do my best to answer the questions.
1) I don't see a "T" in the end of the header, I took some better pictures. I don't think they changed pipe size at the Ts.
2) I am not sure what the equalizer is to evaluate if it is pitched toward it or not.
3) You can see on the pic what was repiped for the new boiler.
4) There is no main venting in the system. I was planning on doing that in the near future to help make the system more efficient, but I did not have this issue before, so I was not expecting that the lack of main vent was causing the problem.
5) There is movement in the site glass, not a ton. I do think the system needs to be skimmed and that will happen when he comes back out. The spigot next to the site glass is the skim port, per the manual.
6) I think the mains are pitched decently, but I have not put a level on them yet.
7) Hopefully the pictures help clarify the header. The main is coming off the top of the boiler. It does appear that all the piping on the mains are 2". There is a reducer in the boiler.
8) Pressuretrol was set around 1psi. We reduced it today to roughly 0.5, but that did not seem to impact the issue.
9) If I say a full EDR wasn't done, will you guys stop talking to me?
I added some pics and tried to sketch out the piping in the basement.

bvaughn76

Forgot the sketch.

KC_Jones

If there is a bushing on the supply that is wrong and is certainly contributing to wet steam. Here is a link to the manual look at page 7 Figure 1. http://www.slantfin.com/images/stories/Technical-Literature/installmanual_galaxy_gxh_gxha_stm_41.pdf
It clearly states 2 1/2" all the way through the header and you shouldn't reduce down until after the tee to the mains. The installer should follow this at a minimum. You should do a full EDR even thought there isn't much can be done about it now, it would be good to know if you are over sized because this can cause issues as well. Bigger is certainly not better on steam. The installer should have known this. The one main is definitely pitched incorrectly, the highest point should be above the boiler and sloping towards the end of the main from there. You don't want condensate flowing against the steam, unless it's counterflow which your system is not. That first section is sloped towards the boiler. The same goes for the header, it still appears to be pitched towards the boiler and not the equalizer. The equalizer is the pipe that goes from the header to the bottom of the boiler and has the Hartford loop tied into it.

Fred

I would have done that Header completely differently. The header should be at least one size bigger than the Riser out of the boiler (which should not have been bushed down) and those mains should have been tied into the new header rather than wrapping the header around like they did. Certainly the new portion of the header should be higher at the riser end and slope down as it makes those turns and heads to the equalizer.
Also, what they told you was the skim port is not a skim port. A skim port has to be above the water line at the top of the boiler block so that oil, on the surface of the water can be skimmed off and not stick to the sides of the boiler walls. The way that valve is now, you have to lower the water level to use it for skimming and that will allow oils on the surface of the water to just cling to the side walls as you lower the water. Also, to skim properly, you need a full port valve. A spigot doesn't work well.

KC_Jones

Fred if you look at the manual I linked to and go to page 13 they have the skimming procedure for that boiler. The skim port is indeed very low and only 3/4" unless I am missing something in the manual. They have a unique procedure for skimming. I agree about the piping...they took the lazy/incorrect way out. No matter what though the header and riser are the wrong size according to the manual. I recommend a re pipe or they will be fighting with that boiler forever.

Fred

I guess reading is believing KC (I Guess). Doesn't make sense to me for skimming and the way they suggest skimming the galaxy model, using the Pressure Relief Port mounted on top of the boiler is even more bizzare.

vaporvac

I don't find anything pertaining to it in their lit, but some of these SFs have a pretty nifty interior skimming design to capture the oils. Hopefully, someone knowledgeable can pipe in with which models have this. Unfortunately for me, the Intrepids don't.

bvaughn76

Thank you everyone for the input on this. I can definitely better understand some of the things I will work on getting corrected with the installer. Question though, I am not sure how getting the header resized and pitched properly will fix the sloshing issue. I feel as if something is trapping the condensate in the pipes.

icesailor

I'm not passing myself off as any authority. That's not the first time that system had a boiler change.

Just because the last person to change it did it wrong, doesn't mean that the next one should follow the same mistakes.

Sad. There's so much free information out there from knowledgeable people.

Ask how many people they run in to that are heating professionals and if they read heatingHelp.com. Darned few.

Do it right, do it well. Or don't bother doing it at all.

KC_Jones

bvaughn76 said:

Thank you everyone for the input on this. I can definitely better understand some of the things I will work on getting corrected with the installer. Question though, I am not sure how getting the header resized and pitched properly will fix the sloshing issue. I feel as if something is trapping the condensate in the pipes.

The way that piping is you are definitely getting wet steam. Wet steam means the steam is sucking the water out of the boiler and sending it into your main...that is why near boiler piping is so very important. People come on this site frequently complaining of a spitting radiator or vent or noises and are fixated with were the problem is not what is causing it. Think of it like this if your car makes a noise that you can hear inside the car you know it's the engine right? You don't pull over and start checking if the seat is tight. It doesn't matter were you "see" the problem it only matters what is causing the problem. In the case of steam the problem could be in the basement you are just seeing the result of that problem on the second floor.

bvaughn76

KC_Jones, I understand what you are saying and I have every intention of getting the piping near the boiler right. I guess what is challenging my problem solving mind is that the piping did not change from the old boiler to the new. So, is repiping going to solve the problem or just make my installation correct and more efficient? My wife is 8.5 mo pregnant with twins. If I do make these changes and the problem still isn't solved, I will not be in a good place after it wakes her up again at night.

One thing I want to highlight is that within a couple minutes of the boiler starting one of the return pipes was too hot to touch. This is making us think that there is a vaccum pulling water up the return line out of the boiler. Does this suggest anything?

BobC

Is the entire system 1 pipe steam, sometimes you find a mix of one pipe and two pipe in the same system.

The piping may not have changed the something may have been raised or lowered when the new boiler was put in. Your new boiler is more sensitive to near boiler piping than most so what was ok with the old may not work with the new.

The piping all has to have proper slope, the venting has to be addressed, the boiler has to be skimmed, and the boiler header and it's connections to the steam mains have to be correct.

The system will perform like it should when all issues have been corrected (known and unknown). Make sure you find someone who understands steam to do the work, otherwise it will not work and will have to be done again.

Bob

Abracadabra

bvaughn76 said:

One thing I want to highlight is that within a couple minutes of the boiler starting one of the return pipes was too hot to touch. This is making us think that there is a vaccum pulling water up the return line out of the boiler. Does this suggest anything?

More details on this please. Is this a dry or wet return? Is the return horizontal at the point it is getting too hot too touch? Height of return in relation to water level? Pics of this said "too hot to touch" return?

KC_Jones

I honestly think what is missed by many that come here for advice is that it's a heating "system". You had a boiler replaced, the instant that is done the entire system needs to be looked at for function and compatibility with that new boiler. You can't assume the piping is correct with the new boiler it just isn't always the case. I am NOT saying re piping will fix your problem what I am saying is your system isn't correct and needs addressed. The fix for your problem may not be simple. You have what sounds like a system problem and until all issues with the system are fixed you might not be able to resolve the issue. The installer did their job incorrectly and they need to fix their mistake. After that you can better evaluate the system for function, or the problem may go away. The new boiler makes steam differently than the old one, so you can not assume the rest of the system will work just because it did before. That being said since the boiler is what changed for basic problem solving you should start there. The piping is wrong and needs to be fixed period. The piping didn't change, but the boiler did and that changes EVERYTHING.

bvaughn76

It was the highlighted return pipe. I don't know how to define it as a wet or dry return. It is piped from the end of the main back to the boiler. It is horizontal and pitched back to the boiler. The pitch was bad before, but I corrected it so it would stop banging. The height of the pipe is just over 6' (I know from hitting my head on it numerous times). It is 3/4 copper from the end of the main and then transitions to black pipe where it turns to the boiler. There is a vent at the boiler at the top of the riser to the Hartman loop. The copper is roughly 20ft long and then the black pipe is about 10ft to the boiler.

KC_Jones

What pressure is the pressuretrol set for? Do you have a low pressure gauge to know what pressure you are actually running at? Do you know if it is getting "steam hot" or just hot? My returns get pretty hot that I can't really touch them, but I checked and they aren't steam hot just very hot condensate.

nicholas bonham-carter

Maybe high pressure is pushing water up into that return pipe.
Have you got a low pressure gauge, and or vaporstat.
Some insulation would help on those pipes.-NBC

bvaughn76

The pressuretrol was set for 1psi and we dropped it to 0.5psi to see if 1 psi was preventing the condensate from getting back to the boiler. It did not help. I do not have a low pressure guage, i am operating between the 0 and the 1st tick mark on the gauge.

bvaughn76

I feel as if I have offended those who have been gracious enough to provide this advice. I am honestly interested in learning and trying to understand the lost art of steam heating and I am overly motivated to make this system work as efficiently as possible within the means of my wallet. I am going to work with my installer to get this corrected, the challenge is getting them out, so when I do I want to make sure I have looked at all the angles. So, that is the basis to my question about the main piping correction. Not looking for a silver bullet, just trying to understand this comprehensively.

KC_Jones

You have not offended anyone...well not me for sure. I am blunt and sometimes I sound "annoyed", but I am not. I appreciate people urgency to fix things so I just put it like it is. This is a great site with tons of great information. My statements were purely to make sure you understand about it being a system. Oh and on a personal note I have 4 year old twins and a 7 year old...I fully appreciate your urgency!

BobC

Those returns should be hot because the vents are at the end of the dry returns not the end of the mains. The question may be why is the other one not hot?

Those vents are pretty wimpy, you probably need more venting; that may not fix your issues but it's a step in the right direction. Once things start to work right all of that piping should be insulated with 1" fiberglass insulation.

i doubt there is a single fix to your problem, start by doing the easy stuff (skimming and bigger vents) and see what kind of difference it makes.

Bob

bvaughn76

So, yes normally the returns are hot after steam was running through the mains and condensate in the return. What we thought interesting was that the return was hot before we were really getting steam to the radiators. Seemed like it was pulling hot water from the boiler into the return.

Is it correct to have vents on the return lines at the boiler where they turn down into the Hartman loop?

KC, I have just come to grasp the concept that I have no idea what I am getting into with twin boys on the way. Already have a 2 year old, so I am basically 4 years behind you.

nicholas bonham-carter

so 3 under 2--what a handful!--NBC

KC_Jones

You don't need vents on the returns of a 1 pipe system, but sometimes they were put there for ease of installation when someone added venting to the system. The proper location is at the end of the main, but if you don't have a place to install them there then at the end of the return will still get the air out. If you have end of main venting already then (if it was me) I would probably remove those return vents and plug the holes. I can't think of anything they are really doing for you other then being another possible problem in your system.

Fred

bvaughn76 said:

So, yes normally the returns are hot after steam was running through the mains and condensate in the return. What we thought interesting was that the return was hot before we were really getting steam to the radiators. Seemed like it was pulling hot water from the boiler into the return.

Is it correct to have vents on the return lines at the boiler where they turn down into the Hartman loop?

KC, I have just come to grasp the concept that I have no idea what I am getting into with twin boys on the way. Already have a 2 year old, so I am basically 4 years behind you.

They should be hot before the radiators. When you have your venting at the end of the dry return steam is going to go that direction first (just like it is an extension of your Main. It is not necessary to vent the dry returns on a 1 pipe system but it is ok to do if that's the only place vents can be added (preferably on the main after the last radiator run) You just have to make sure you add additional venting to address the air in the additional piping.
Like we have said earlier, with the pitch on that header going in the wrong direction, and being installed the way it is, you likely have a water trap at that "U" turn in the pipe. It is amazing how noise, like water sloshing can radiate through piping. Take a long screw driver when the boiler is running and put the end of the screw driver against the pipe and put your ear against the end of the handle of the screw driver and listen to the noise. Start at the U turn on that header and move down the mains and listen for where the noise is loudest. That will give you some indication of where to start looking for water setting in the pipe and fixing that will likely to be a big part of your solution. Having said all that, fixing near boiler piping is another big part of the solution. Putting more (enough) venting on the system is another big part.

bvaughn76

I did run around and do an EDR. I calculated about 485sqft. I have the GXHA-160ED which shows AHRI Steam Sqft rating of 408. So it would appear I am a bit undersized.

I was really worried that I was oversized.

I am renovating the second floor so radiators are getting turned on/off or removed depending on the work going on. I can't imagine that is helping my situation. Good news is, all those rads will be going back for good with brand new shinny valves.

Fred

If your EDR numbers are right, you are about 17%, 18% undersized. Some of that can be made up with the pick-up factor built into boilers but it is important that the piping be correct, that all the mains and radiator run-outs that you can get to be insulated, and that you not use any thermostat set-backs that the boiler can't recover from on cold days. It is also critical that you have as much venting on the Mains as you need, based on the size and length of those Mains so that steam can move through the system as quickly as possible. Having done those things you will probably be alright, tight on cold starts but alright most of the time.

nicholas bonham-carter

If you are referring to the shut-off valves, be aware that the spud into the radiator will have to be changed as well as the valve itself, as they are a matched pair. Getting the old spud out is challenging!
If you refer to the vents, then get some hoffman 1a's or 40's. These plus maxed main venting will help with balancing the system.--NBC

bvaughn76

Starting a new thread with the follow up.