New House steam questions

borner

Hello,
I just bought my first house, and I'm sitting here cold because I refuse to turn up the heat. I have been reading this page for hours...
Whenever the thermostat calls for heat, the boiler runs constantly (Nest says running for 5-8 hours / day) setpoint is 55-57F.
Going from 50-57 (~25-30 outside) takes roughly 3-4 hours, and it seems the boiler is running the whole time. Its a 1400sqft house. Boiler is a newer Burnham. House is.. OK.. not ridiculously leaky, but not great (its a 1929 model, single floor dormered). Heat is single pipe steam.

I believe the Presuretrol is set too high, the consensus seems to be ~1psi / 1psi.. But the scale stops at 2psi? This is subtractive, so I should do something like Main 1PSI and Diff 0.5 (that means boiler runs to 1 PSI, turns off goes to 0.5psi and starts back up?). Should the needles just be down in the mud (half way between 0 and 2? Like the red lines?). The pressure gauge is a 30psi full scale, so its pretty useless.

One other question, replacing the main vent and the steam vents on the radiators.. They seem to work, radiators get hot, no hissing or clicking or spitting. Should these be periodically replaced, or leave well enough alone? I can't guess the age, probably older than me (Maybe?).

Thank you guys so much for the help!

nicholas bonham-carter

Nice insulated pipes, but are there any main vents?
If the boiler runs constantly, then the temperature must not be rising enough to cause the thermostat to turn off the boiler.
An accurate thermometer would enable you to see the rise in temperature, (don't trust the nest without an alternate thermometer).
Do a search here for boiler sizing, and the EDR, and then with one of the radiator charts measure the radiators, and compare the total in square feet of steam to the boiler label, which will show how many square feet of steam it can produce. Hopefully, this is not a problem caused by an undersized boiler.--NBC

BobC

I see what looks to be a Ventrite 35 in one pic, that may mean you need a lot more main venting. Steam can not fill the mains till all the air is out. How long are the steam mains and the main have some slope to it so water can find it's way bach to the boiler.

That Ventrite 35 is rated at 0.11CFM and is almost certainly too small. A Gorton #2 is rated at 1.1CFM which is 10X faster. You may need more than one depending on the length of the mains.

The ventrate #1 on the radiators are good vents, have you verified they all are wotking.

Bob

borner

Nick-
That insulation was alot of fun to install, the pipes were naked when I got the place!
For the furnace always running, I mean it never gets to the cutout pressure, so if I'm heating from 50f to 57f the furnace will be running for 4-5hours (gas is firing). Is that normal? The Thermostat seems to be doing what I would expect.

Bob-
That vent rite is on a radiator, I can get a picture of the main vent this evening. I figure they are working, the rads get hot (I'm not sure how to test them). Plumber told me to put a tissue over the main vent, if it gets blown away its not clogged, that works.
There is no hammering or anything, I'm under the assumption the pipe slopes and all that are good.

I will try and calculate the EDR and see if the boiler is sized correctly.

Do those settings on the Pressuretrol look correct, should they be lower?

Thanks again for your help!!

KC_Jones

Honestly you don't want to get to the cutout pressure. If you indeed are keeping the pressure that low, that is a good thing. That GENERALLY indicates you have enough venting. I would suggest not using a setback like you are. Setbacks on these high mass systems can waste more fuel than you think you are saving. To throw some "made up" numbers at you as an example. You say you run for 4 hours to raise from 50-57 in the morning. If you left it at 57 all night long and only ran 20 minutes every hour and slept for 8 hours that would be about 2.5 hours of run time. I don't know how your system is working so I am just throwing some theoretical numbers based upon my experience. 7 degree setback is massive on a steam system. I would suggest you try a higher set point and leave it there and maybe do 3-4 degree setback if you must do one. That being said the amount of run time you are experiencing to me does seem excessive. I would agree with previous posters that you should try and measure the EDR of your system and make sure the boiler is sized correctly.

John Mills_5

Can't tell from the pix and asking from a learning effort, is there a Hartford Loop on that ?

KC_Jones

Good eye, it kind of looks like there isn't. To the OP can you take an overall picture of the piping behind the boiler, specifically the return piping down lower.

borner

I was going to go home tonight and take some more pictures, and map the thing out (MS paint style), with pipe diameters, and rad EDRs.
I will update as soon as I can.

David Nadle

I agree with eliminating the setback, at least until the system operation is well understood. I'm also wondering how the Nest is configured for steam. I didn't think that was possible.

KC_Jones

As far as I know it's not possible, but with the run times they are experiencing I doubt the CPH setting is factoring in at this point? The Nest will work the system, but it's not optimal by any means because of the lack of cycle control.

borner

There is a steam option when configuring the Nest, It looks like it just widens the hysteresis for the temperature (1-2 degrees), compared to hot air. It has been regulating pretty well.
The cycle times seem normal once the house has reached setpoint

Fred

That boiler is plumbed so nicely, I'm sure there is a Hartford Loop on the back side. We just can't see it. Hopefully additional pics will show it. As others have said, a 7 degree set back is a horrible thing for a steam system. I use to use a 4 degree setback and learned that it actually was costing me more in natural gas to bring the house up to temp every morning. I now leave it set at the same temp all the time and the boiler (and my wallet) are much happier. On days when the temp is 0 or below outside, the boiler simply can't catch up.
It sounds like your pressures are running like they should. The boiler should only rarely (on the coldest of days) cut-out on pressure. Set the Main on your preassuretrol to a little below 2PSI and the Differential to about half way between the bottom of the scale and 2PSI. That should give you a cut-out of around 1.5PSI and a Cut-in of about .5PSI. If you ever replace that Pressuretrol, get yourself a Vaporstat. They wire up just like your Pressuretrol but allow you to adjust pressures in ounces rather than pounds.
When all is said and done, it does seem like very long run times. You do need to make sure the boiler is sized for the amount of raditor EDR. On the side plate of the Burnhamit will tell you the Sq. Ft. of Steam the boiler produces. Compare that to your total radiator EDR and see how close those numbers are.
Also, even though it is a fairly new boiler, make sure you don't see a lot of steam going out the top of the chimney. I doubt the boiler block has a craack in the top of it but stranger things have happened. It should build a few ounces to a pound of pressure when it runs that long.

borner

So I realized that I do not know how to calculate the EDR of radiators, and I need to look harder for the plate on the boiler.

House.jpg has pipe diameters, and lengths for the whole house. All pipes have 1" fiberglass.

I took the following measurements:
Dining Room: 36"x9"x19" 3 column 15 section
Living Room: 42"x9"x19" 3 column 17 section
Bedroom 1: 16"x9"x34" 3 column 6 section
Bathroom: 12"x9"x24" 3 column 5 section
Bedroom2: 14"x9"x34" 3 column 6 section

The main vent is a Vent Rite #35 (1/4" 1/2" ?)

My thinking right now: I should get a 0-3 or 0-5 PSI gauge, and T is off the pressuretrol pig tail.
Those are all 1/4" NPT, right?

Is there any sense to replacing these vents due to just age? Main included?
Some of the radiators are the variable vent-rites from the first post.

Fred

He does have a Hartford loop. You can see the elbow peeking out right at the corner of the chimney.
The Pigtail is 1/4" NPT and a 0 - 3 PSI gauge would be a really good thing.

KC_Jones

Has this house had extensive remodeling? Do you know if any rads were removed? Did you notice any capped pipes when you insulated the pipes? I did a quick EDR on what you listed and I am coming up with 150 ft² of radiation which doesn't seem like enough for a house that size?! I would be curious to hear others thoughts on this? Most of the time houses are over radiated, but that number seems really low to me.

borner

There is an additional rad in the attic, and one looks like it was removed from the kitchen. That would be interesting if it were undersized, the po had additional electric baseboard in the living room, maybe there was a good reason?

KC_Jones

It could be....this could be why it is taking so long to heat the house. This might be a bigger issue than just some tuning. I would be curious to hear what a pro has to say, but if rads were removed that might be a bad thing. It's possible you may have to consider reinstalling those rads or running that electric heat. If that boiler is the IN3 it is rated for 158 ft² of steam so you have a bit of room to add radiation if needed. I may be jumping the gun though...I would be curious if a pro had any gut feelings about this.

borner

Well that 1400 is what the realestate folks said, that includes part of the dormered attic which I sealed off and turned the radiator off. I should actually measure..

Fred

The boiler is sized nicely for the amount of radiation you have in the house but, as KC says, it sounds like there simply isn't enough radiators in the house. I would have expected something closer to 250 sq. ft. of radiators. You say the house temp is just OK but the boiler is running 5 to 8 hours a day to maintain 57 degrees. You may get by with adding one more radiator since your pipes are well insulated you probably aren't using all of the overhead EDR built into the boiler for piping but I'm not sure that will solve the problem. How far away from the radiator is the thermostat? You can probably cut the cycle times down by having the thermostat closer to the radiator (not on top of it but in proximity) but that is not going to add any warmth to the house. You certainly should not use a set back at all. The boiler will have a lot less run time maintaining a temp than trying to gain 7 degrees.

borner

OK you guys got me all scared...
So I measured out the total sqft of the house: 733.8553
Also Ceilings are all 8.5'
(for the part that I actually heat). Attic is closed, and 3 season porches are closed off(ish).
I attached a basic drawing, I'm not an artist .

Also the plate on the Boiler: Burnham says 158sqft of steam.

I changed the heat schedule for basically no set back, 62 when I get home (6:30), 60 when I go to bed until I come home again.
I'll see what the hours look like, but this depends on temps outside.

Also I can't thank everyone enough for all your help. You're all amazing!

Fred

Ok, that makes a lot more sense! Watch it and let us know. Change the Pressuretrol and do add/change the Main vent to a Gorton #2 if you have the head room. They are about 7.5 inches tall. That will really help move the steam along.

KC_Jones

At 733 it makes more sense...I still can't figure how anyone thought taking the Rad out of the Kitchen was a good idea?! Oh well I look at everything the previous owner did to my house and I think the same thing...how was that a good idea!? lol

borner

Alright, here is a quick update!
I changed the set back to about 2 degrees (62 from 7pm till 10pm, 60 for the rest of the day and my furnace on time went from 9 to 6 hours per day.

However!! it turns out that was only part of the issue, I had a plumber in to move a gas line (because I'm scared of gas) and we discovered there was a supply pressure issue. Basically I was firing my boiler with a zippo. After the utility snaked the gas line to the street my boiler turned into a monster and daily usage is down to 4 hours/ day. I think thats good?

Thank you guys for the help!!! You guys are great!

Fred

Great! That's about 10 minutes an hour, on average (24 hr day) and that sounds great. Keep an eye on various pilot lights or if any gas appliance starts to act up, they may not have gotton all the dirt out of the line. Hopefully any dirt will fall into the dirt leg on each appliance.

KC_Jones

borner said:

(because I'm scared of gas)

So is my wife, but remember this there are more fires from electricity then gas. Also gas has been in houses a lot longer than electric. Gas is actually really really safe. That being said no utility is anything to play games with. Glad to hear the good news!

misterheat

HI ,can ask what kind o insulation is that and where did you get it locally or on line ? i have insulation envy. thanks

handbanana

misterheat- check out buyinsulationproducts.com
I don't work for them, but like borner, I bought a house with nude cold pipes.
Home Depot had junky 1/2", this is Owens 1" ssli, with pre taped seam, real nice to install.

jch1

What did you use for the water heater?

borner

That Owens Corning stuff is really nice, sticky on both sides.
When I got mine I got half (Owens Corning) from Boston Building Resources. I got the remainder from General Insulation (a chain) in Malden, MA, but GI can be found all over the country.
The Owens is much nicer.

Did you cover yours in mastic or something? It looks much more continuous than mine.

handbanana

JCH1- Hot water tank was wrapped with this kit:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0041871AY/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Get extra aluminum foil tape. It comes with a sparse amount, and I like COMPLETE seam coverage.

Borner - I used ASJ tape to join sections of the 1" fiberglass together. I also tape the 'pre taped' seam near each end- the integral adhesive gives a bit here and there as is.

I mitered all of the corners where possible to join them. Then I taped the corners if they met tightly, or LIGHTLY stuffed wedges or slivers of insulation in any spaces and taped TIGHT.

The bulky T's to rad takeoffs and other irregular shapes were a bit tedious - but again, I like complete coverage.

I have to say, if anyone is a non believer - wrapping the pipes made an IMMEDIATE tangible difference.
In fact, it revealed problems that I had and didn't know about....new water hammer, venting issues - all because things were heating up they way they should. Very cool.
Basement went from a sauna to room temp as well.

By the way - I have a couple dozen 2" steam pipe insulation (like in my pics), 1" x 3' left over; some other sizes as well.
If anyone is in need and lives in NYC metro area.....
Adam

misterheat

My old plumber once mentioned that wrapping my new hot water heater with insulation voids the warranty...does any one know if there is truth to this???

borner

The Energy Audit guy told me there is little benefit (if you have a newer model), I can't speak to the warranty. But the duty cycle of your water heater is pretty low anyways.. the savings would probably be pretty low.. might not offset the cost of the wrap. There is already a fair amount of insulation there, and the thermal mass is huge.

handbanana

For the record, after the install of the hot water wrap, I wouldn't do it again. It was an overzealous move.

My new ao smith tank is wrapped pretty well inside from the factory.
I noticed ZERO difference in savings, hot water delivery speed, hotter water, NO difference.

Probably great for an old tank.
You're now $.02 richer