Loud boiler noises heard through radiator vents question...

Roddy

Weil McLain E6 single pipe steam system, at least 35 years old I'm guessing. Working and heating well for a number of years in my two story with basement old home---with much previous help from this wall and related books on this site.

Beginning this year, in the second story radiators (that have faster vents for more even heating), quite a bit of fairly loud boiler noise can be heard----boiling and some popping, and water rumbling sounds from the boiler can be heard quite plainly; also quite a bit of pinging and pipe or metal expansion noise during start up from cold through steam delivery. First floor rads and boiler itself gives no such new noise---at least that's easily heard. This is a change from years past.

The only thing done recently was I had a fairly knowledgeable service man in who replaced my site glass which had broken (my fault), and cleaned out the pig tail (it was not clogged). Because the site glass was broken, I'd lost water, which was replaced with fresh water once repair was completed. I immediately had the water boil to steam, etc. The only other thing he did was clean the gas burner side a bit, and replaced the thermocouple. I do regular drain offs on the low water cut off, bottom drain, and return loop drain. I see nothing unusual there---the bottom and return loop drain give very clean water.

The system is heating well and is not losing water, but this noise is annoying and new this heating season.

Thanks in advance,
Roddy

Fred

Few things to check.:
1. Make sure your Radiators are pitched towards the supply pipe. It sounds like maybe water is sitting there and possibly boiling.
2. Make sure the horizontal pipes in the basement (that run out to the radiator risers) are pitched back towards the Main. Also make sure there are no sags in any of the horizontal runs or the Mains.
3. Make sure the Pressuretrol is functioning properly. You say the pigtail was cleaned. There is a small port in the Pressuretrol fitting that connects to that pigtail. Make sure it is not plugged.
4. Do you have a 0 - 3PSI gauge on the boiler? Make sure your pressure is as low as you can get it. Cut-in should be .5PSI and Differential set at 1PSI for a Max Cut-out of 1.5PSI.
5. Check the radiator(s) where you hear the gurgling sounds. I have found that a very small leak at the coupling where the supply valve connects to the radiator can create strange sounds.

Roddy

Thanks, Fred. All good suggestions for making single pipe steam perform optimally, but I do those checks on a somewhat regular basis ever since The Wall's earlier help years ago---with the exception of #5, which I just checked and they appear to be fine and secure. So, it looks like I'm still looking for a solution....As I mentioned earlier, the system is basically working very well, it's just these new, loud boiler noises traveling through the system and up to and through a couple upstairs radiators. Thanks again, great list.

Fred

I know you think it is noise coming from the boiler but I think you are going to find it is in a pipe run. Can you stand by the boiler and hear it coming from there? If it were boiler noise, it i not likely to be confined to a couple radiators. Are those two radiators tied into the same riser/run? Is there a drip leg of any kind on and of the piping to those radiators that might be partially blocked?

Don_197

what is the operating pressure? Excessive pressure will cause any and/or all of the problems listed. I am not asking for the "settings" I am asking what the ACTUAL pressure is.

Roddy

Thanks, again, Fred. Now you've got me wondering/thinking even more:
1. The noise isn't obvious at all at the boiler. My opinion, though, is it sure sounds like boiling, popping water at the radiators in questions vents. So, maybe it is water trapped near the radiators that happened somehow when I restarted the system after site glass repair water topping off???

2. The main culprit radiators are not on the same run, but maybe of interest (?) they are the last radiators on each of the two runs of my system. Also, these two radiators do have the biggest vents on them, with one of them having a very large vent as that radiator had been tough to heat prior to first re-balancing my system years ago.

3. Your comment about "drip leg"...not sure my system has them...should it? Not sure I really know what they are...If a drip leg connects the condensate to the return line under the radiator, I wouldn't be able to see these two as they'd be buried between the second story floor and first story ceiling, I assume. I don't really see anything like this in the basement ceiling looking up at where my pipes meet my first floor radiators.

4. A couple additional items I'd like to mention that may help somehow:
A. Except in outdoor temps below about 20 degrees F, my thermostat is satisfied without a second cycle, i.e. my pressure gauge (which is in ounces) never really registers any pressure unless it gets colder than 20 degrees. My returns do definitely heat up, though. When it gets colder than 20 degrees or so, the pressure gauge registers pressure and the Pressuretrol does cycle the system off and on as many times as needed to satisfy the thermostat.
B. Because of lack of headroom, I couldn't use Gorton #2's as my main vents, so I did a T set up and have three Gorton #1's venting each of the two mains.

Thanks again, Fred.

Roddy

Roddy

Fred, if operating pressure is measured at the pressure gauge on my boiler, I can answer the question...when it's cold enough that my system has to actually cycle to satisfy the thermostat and the pressure gauge registers pressure, which here in the Chicago area can be much of Nov.-April, my system shuts off at about 35 ounces of pressure, then kicks back in at about 9 ounces. My Pressuretrol is set at the .5 PSI cut in and 1 PSI differential recommended, however---which, without looking at it right now, is the lowest I think it can be set.

Roddy

My apologies. The above comment is in response to Don's question, not Fred's. Thanks for any suggestions, Don and Fred.
Roddy.

Fred

Sometimes the original Mains, in the basement will have a branch off of them that dead ends and there is a smaller pipe at the bottom of that end that allows condensation to drip back into the boiler return. You say these radiators are the last on each Main. Do those Mains loop back to the boiler or do they end at that point? It almost sounds like the pitch, at the end of those Mains or the horizontal runs to those end radiators are either level or slightly pitched the wrong way.
It sounds like you probably need more venting on the mains as well. It takes about 3 1/2 Gorton #1 s to handle the air volume of 1 Gorton #2. The rule of thumb is 1 Gorton #2 for each 20 feet of 2" Main. Take some rough measurements and see where you are. It is probably going to take an antler rather than a Tee.

Roddy

Thanks, Fred.
I don't see any drip lines coming from any of the visible main into the boiler returns.

I don't see that the mains loop back, I only see the return lines. But they're all somewhat connected, aren't they?

I'll follow up on the measurements and let you know.

Could I attempt to raise the horizontal runs to these end of run radiators by raising up the two radiators a bit? Can I do that? Pitch of the radiators themselves is currently good.

Fred

Check the pitch of thoe runs before trying to lift those raadiators up. If they are level or pitched the wrong way, then try raising those two rads. yoou don't want to raise them until you are sure you need to or you may throw something else out of pitch.

It sounds like the pressure at 35 ounces is too high. Do calculate how many Gorton #1 s you need to vent the length of pipe you have on each main. Remember 1 Gorton #2 (4 Gorton #1 s) for each 20 feet of 2" main.

If you want to recalibrate your Pressuretrol (to get it closer to the 1.5 PSI (24 ounces) that it should cut-out at, rather than 35 Ounces, here is the procedure:

Inside the Pressuretrol, right below the micro switch, there is a pivot arm. At the end of that arm you will see a screw pin that is activated by the diaphragm at the bottom of the Pressuretrol. If you look very carefully at that screw pin, you will see it actually has a tiny (I mean tiny) hex head on it. It takes a .050 hex wrench and you can turn it clockwise (Towards the bottom of the Pressuretrol to decrease the Cut-out pressure or counter clockwise to increase the cut-out pressure (which none of us want to do but who knows, your Pressuretrol may be really screwed up!). Turn the power to the unit off first. You may find the first attempt to turn that screw a little bit stubborn (relatively speaking) because it has some Locktite on it but it does turn. Don't turn too much, a fraction of a turn goes a long way towards getting it adjusted where you want it (maybe 1/32 inch turn to start with). You may need to play with it to get it exactly where you want cut out to be.

nicholas bonham-carter

In the beginning I thought about rengineerining the over excited pressuretrol, but because it was already cold, I got a vaporstat.
This demonstrates the importance of sizing the boiler properly, which of course has not been done for many supplicants here!--
NBC

Roddy

All good ideas for me to follow up on to check things out and make my single pipe steam system work as well as possible. Most all of the suggestions don't get to the root of the problem---I think this for two reasons:
1. The problem is a new one that didn't exist before, with no significant changes to my system in the interim that should / would have triggered it. (I'm checking slope of runs that feed the two radiators in question to see if something has dropped/changed slopes).
2. I don't think it's related to the system pressure in general as the noise boiling, bubbling, pinging, ticking loud noises heard at these two radiators are heard even when the system hasn't built enough pressure to even show up on the pressure gauge.

I'll do my follow ups and let you know what I find.

Thanks to all responders.

Roddy

Captain Who

I think you might have sludge/sediment build up in those "horizontal" runners that feed the problematic radiators. Before you try jacking them up, I'd remove the radiator from the supply shut off valve and remove the radiator valve. Inspect that of course but it is probably fine. Then screw on an adaptor that goes to a garden hose fitting. Run the garden hose from your nearest faucet that has a screw fitting. Make sure you use a garden hose that doesn't leak of course. Then open up the drain at the bottom of the return by the boiler and flush out that whole line going down to the boiler. Keep doing it until it gets noticeably cleaner. Probably will never clear up completely if it is like mine. Repeat the process for each problematic radiator and see if that clears up the problem. If it only helps but doesn't cure it completely, then try jacking the radiators up.

Captain Who

PS: If you have any vents in your dry returns you should probably remove them and plug that hole up to avoid possibly gunking up the vent while flushing. I know the vents are supposed to be at the end of the mains but it seems like some people (like me) have them at the end of the dry returns.

Captain Who

PPS: You have to drain the boiler first if you don't have shut off valves to isolate it, like I didn't. If there is a ball valve in the Hoffman Loop it is a good idea to close that too. I didn't have any shut off valves though.

Captain Who

Probably a good idea to flush the radiator too if you want to be extra thorough but that is probably easier said than done. I did it with mine but it was only a 23-1/2"H x 17-1/2" W x 5"D radiator. I was able to carry it outside to flush it out.

Roddy

Thank you, Captain. I think this is very worth trying. Also, thank you for the PS's, I would not have known to do those things. My main vents are at the end of my dry returns too.

Captain Who

No problem. It wasn't as hard as I thought it would be and I'd been procrastinating on doing it for a couple years. Finally the radiator in question which has a mouse maze of crazy routed horizontal runners started spitting water and I shut it off last year. This year before starting the system up I had already drained and flushed the boiler and decided to tackle the return line and radiator at the same time. Completely cured the problem and the sight glass is more steady than I can ever remember it being. If you have the shutoff valve on the Hoffman loop you shouldn't have to drain the boiler at all. I didn't make that clear. If you don't have the shutoff you can probably get away with just draining it through the return drain to the bottom of the close nipple in the Hoffman because I don't think the flushing process will back all the way up into the boiler. Of course, if it did it would be very bad assuming some of that gunk and sediment ended up in the boiler. If you flush the boiler out at the same time like I did that is a moot point though.

Fred

There won't be any sludge/crud in those radiator runs, trust me. There is an internal trough inside the radiators that is there to collect any rust/crud that might fall from inside the radiators. The fact that the noisy radiators are both at the end of each main and that you hear water boiling tell me, even though no work has been done, something has settled and water, not crud, is setting somewhere along the horizontal piping, either in the basement or under the floor right at the radiators. Do the supply pipes near the radiators come out of the floor or out of the wall? Years ago I had a very similar situation with one radiator where the supply came out of the wall and over the years, the weight of the radiator caused it to settle just enough that the radiator, while properly pitched, was still setting slightly below the supply pipe. I could hear boiling water, gurgling, etc. that sounded like it was coming from the base of the riser in the basement but upon further investigation, I found this cause and raised the radiator up a quarter inch and repitched it and it all went away.

Roddy

Thanks to both Fred and Captain. You've got the somewhat educated novice thinking...

Fred: The pipes feeding both of these ends of run radiators come from the floor.

Captain: A couple questions on your hose water flushing details:
1. Instead of rigging a set up where the hose screws into an adapter at the pipe on the floor at the radiators, can't I just put the end of the hose into the pipe and let the water run/flush through? Is it critical to do the adapter for a tight seal connection for some reason?
2. Following your procedure, at first I wondered why the hose water wouldn't flush both the main supply to the radiators and the return line from the radiators...or would it do both? Now I'm thinking since the return is below the supply, the water would run to the lower pipe, the supply, but I'm not sure. Comments?

Fred

Now you have me confused. In the opening sentence of your original post, you said you have a single pipe system. Now you are saying you have a supply pipe and a return pipe on the radiators. That's a 2 pipe system and a whole different animal. Which is it?

Captain Who

All I can say is that flushing the return helped me in my situation and Dan does recommend doing it in an article I read.

Roddy -

1) I was concerned that if there was some decent amount of blockage that full pressure, rather than just flow rate would be needed to get maximum clearing effect. Also, I was downstairs in the basement by the boiler and the hose was connected to my utility tub several feet from the boiler. I couldn't be in two places at once and it made me nervous thinking that water could possibly back up (especially black foul water) and spray on my carpeting.

2) It might flush the main a little, depending upon whether you have proper pitch or not and the length to the boiler etc.. Main should be pitched upward towards the boiler and downward towards the return and return is pitched downward towards the boiler, of course. In my case I was flushing the boiler at the same time so that wouldn't have been all that much of a disaster I guess, but the return was off an elbow at the end and the main was on a tee before the end (if you can picture that), so that tended to help to ensure that water would mostly go down the returns. Yeah I was thinking too bad there isn't a big king valve or something at the end of the main.......that would've been nice.

Roddy

Fred,
My apologies for being confusing. It's a one pipe system. When I was referencing the return pipe, it's nothing I can see at the radiator, it's just that since these are both end of main radiators, doesn't the return begin right at/after these last radiators?
Thanks,
Roddy

Fred

OK guys, I have to back away from this discussion

Roddy

Thanks, Captain. Your additional comments help.

Roddy

Fred, thanks again. I hope my novice ignorance isn't too off putting. You've given some great advice.

Fred

Roddy, it's not you. I'm having real trouble following Captian Who's train of thought and his advice. If you understand what he is advising you to do and you want to try it, I am backing away so as to not add to the confussion.

Captain Who

I appreciated all your comments Fred and I wouldn't want you to think that I'm disputing anything you said. I did say that if the flushing doesn't help to try jacking up the radiators so I still think we're pretty much on the same page. You should have seen all the crud that washed out of my return when I flushed it. I'm sure every situation is different to some extent. Having said that, I did flush the radiator too. Whenever you do two or more things at once, you never know what fixed it, one or the other or both.

Roddy

Again, my thanks.

Fred

Captian who, I didn't take offense to the fact we aren't on the same page as to what might work and I didn't suggest he lift the radiators up until and unless he determined that that is the problem.
I am having a huge problem with the suggestion that he take radiators loose on the second floor, run hoses to the supply pipes and flush them out. As I said earlier, they aren't likely to be plugged but lets assume they have some residue in them. You are advising him to wash all of that down through the system and either into the boiler (because that's the only place it has to go) or into the area of his Hartford loop and, at that point possible acctually accumulate enough junk along the way to actually create a blockage, not to mention flooding the boiler with all that water, having to drain and flush the boiler, etc. Keep in mind, we blow our boilers down every couple weeks to remove any crap that gradually works its way back to the boiler. When you aggressively wash everything back to the boiler in one fail swoop, that, my friend is a whole nother situation.
Not to mention the risk associated with a hose stretched across his second floor and water inadvertly running out of those supply pipes on the second floor and staining his first floor ceilings and anything else in the way.

Captain Who

Duly noted. I guess it would help to actually know the piping layout of the problematic radiators. I have to admit that in my case, the radiator was the only radiator on the main, since the 2nd one must have been disconnected by a previous owner some years ago who removed the radiator associated, and that one would've been on the 2nd floor anyway. Also, my situation involved a 1st floor radiator, not a 2nd floor one and a very strange mazelike mish mosh of runner pipes that led to the radiator from the main, which I'm sure made it all the more likely for sediment to accumulate in there. Also, it was at the end of the main anyway, so if there had been other radiators before it, they probably wouldn't have been affected by the flushing anyway, since almost all if not all of the water went down the return instead of the main. The radiator had been jacked up absolutely as far as I could because the runout pipe was already pulled up against the basement ceiling and could go no further.

I guess it goes without saying that before anyone attempts this they should predetermine where the water could go and if it could leak out anywhere undesired.

Again, in my case I was sure there was some sort of blockage which was not allowing the condensate to flow back to the boiler as it should and the only way to fix it was by flushing since I didn't have an army of nanorobot scrubbing bubble machines to send in there and clean it all up lol.

Here's a thought.....how about an endoscopic camera like they use for looking inside clogged drain lines? If I had had one of those it would've been fantastic.

PS: Didn't Roddy say that the radiators were at the end of his mains?

Captain Who

PPS: In my case the drain was far lower than the Hartford Loop, 20" lower in fact, and the drain was a full 1" ball valve that had very low restriction to flow. Which way would you go if you were the water......hmm?

Fred

In your case, to that drain, if you knew to shut the boiler down and open it before you started running water into the pipes. In Roddy's case, who knows? We don't even know if his system has a drain valve on the returns, below the Hartford loop. Many older systems don't have drains on the wet returns, just a capped mud leg, which, in many cases can't be opened without breaking (or cutting) the cap and replacing it.

nicholas bonham-carter

Why not get some fittings which will adapt the garden hose to the vent tapping size, and connect it up and use judicial pressure to force anything which may be collecting in the rad out back down into the return?--NBC

Captain Who

Yes that's what I ended up doing, except the radiator was so small I decided it was probably prudent to do that separately and outdoors. I guess if I attempt this on my huge behemoth radiator which is at the end of the other, much larger main, I may very well do that. That radiator did have a temper tantrum last year that I wasn't even aware of, judging by the large brown stain on the carpet by the vent side. Not sure why that problem went away apparently but I have a feeling it may come back.

Perhaps Roddy might want to consider that option. The vent hole is pretty small and restrictive though. Those large plugs in the top of lots of radiators can be pretty hard to get out, which might be another alternative. I broke the one on my small radiator trying to remove it though with a pipe wrench. If I ever tried it again, it would only be with a 4 point socket and an impact wrench and lots of penetrating oil, pre soaked for a few days.

Captain Who

PS: with the radiator removed and outdoors you can use a wire bottle brush through the hole where the radiator supply valve attaches, to loosen any hardened sediment there, prior to or while flushing.

Roddy

Thanks, men. A couple clarifications and additions that tie into your above discussion:
1. Yes, both radiators are a the end of the main/steam supply side of my one pipe system. One at the end of run, and the other at the end of the second run.
2. The system heats well, that's why I hesitate to do anything too drastic to try to correct the problematic noise. Also, when it eventually gets cold enough for my system to actually have to cycle off and on to satisfy the thermostat, the issue will be minimal as it's only really noisy at start up from fairly cold/cool.
3. Regarding the drains on my system: Besides the blow down ball valve, which is on the right side of my boiler, I have two other drains on the left side near the Harford loop, both are near the floor, bottom of the boiler. The slightly higher one toward the front is the boiler bottom drain. The one that's lowest and even slightly below the Harford loop is at the very bottom of the return (far backside of the boiler)---it's almost at floor level. Both of these drains are gate valves that are garden spigot types/sizes.

Captain Who

1) Yeah I thought you had said that a couple or more times. Same situation as me, though mine are 1st floor rads at the ends of the main.

2) I'm not totally clear what you're saying but, since the problem involves condensate blocking or getting in the way of the entering steam, it will of course be worse when the radiator is coldest and when the venting is the most generous (fastest). Did you change those vents to faster ones recently?

3) Yeah I thought you had said at the beginning that you had two drains and that one of them was on the condensate return line. Guess I haven't seen one that didn't yet but I'm not a pro.

I guess it is difficult to know at this point whether your problem is insufficient pitch on the pipes, too small pipes / partial sediment blockage, insufficient pitch on the radiator, partial sediment blockage of the radiator or all of the above. If the situation is like mine it will only get worse until you ultimately get condensate spitting out of your radiator vent one day. Not wishing that on you of course .

If you try the flushing technique you can always start with low flow and watch the sight glass to make sure you aren't filling the boiler at all. Then gradually up the pressure until hopefully you are confident to go full blast. After all we are only re-creating the path that the condensate naturally takes when your system is steaming.

One other point. I first removed the vent at the end of the dry return and flushed down through there for a while. That showed me that it wasn't backing up through the Hoffman Loop into the boiler and cleared any sediment that was already down in the bottom of the returns so I could get maximum flushing power up top where it counted.

Roddy

Thanks, Captain. All very good info. I've got my list of follow ups made. Thanks, everyone.

Roddy, the Novice but learning

petchu

I might suggest checking the inlet valves on the rad in question? I have seen the actual wafer/ disc rot off the stem, fall and cover the steam line......leaving a 1/4 inch hole in the center for steam to enter...........but water is slow to exit the rad? Long shot but it sounds like you have been on this for a while......
Very interesting reading fellas :-)