EDR and Pick up factor Question

JudySweetland

I have an EDR of 665. I used Dan's EDR book to calculate. I am removing a Crown 299,000 Btu steam boiler 1992 model. I am installing a Utica PEG 299EID or so I think. The Sq Ft of steam for the PEG 299 is rated at 782 which includes the 1.33 allowance. I also have a hot water loop that needs 35,000 Btuh of hot water. I did NOT include any piping in my EDR calcs. or include radiation or piping for the HWH loop. This is a three story house built in 1906, 2 pipe system. Should I add the 1.33 factor to my calculation of 665 EDR? If I do the total EDR including piping would come to a whopping 885 total EDR. The Utica PEG 262EID has a total of 685 EDR. What would be the wiser choice? Thanks.

BobC

The boiler sq ft of steam includes a pickup factor of 33%, as long as your not drawing more than that 33% for the hot water loop you should be fine with the Utica with an EDR of 685.

The Utica's are sensitive to near boiler piping so both boiler outlets should be used and the header should be at least one size larger than the boiler outlets. Do not allow them to reduce the boiler outputs so they can use smaller pipe! Also using a drop header would get you nice dry steam and insulate all the piping ypu can reach with 1" fiberglass pipe insulation.

Make sure the installer is good with steam, if it's not done right it will be nothing but trouble. Do it once and do it right, this is not the place to save a few pennies.

Bob

JudySweetland

BobC said:

The boiler sq ft of steam includes a pickup factor of 33%, as long as your not drawing more than that 33% for the hot water loop you should be fine with the Utica with an EDR of 685.

The Utica's are sensitive to near boiler piping so both boiler outlets should be used and the header should be at least one size larger than the boiler outlets. Do not allow them to reduce the boiler outputs so they can use smaller pipe! Also using a drop header would get you nice dry steam and insulate all the piping ypu can reach with 1" fiberglass pipe insulation.

Make sure the installer is good with steam, if it's not done right it will be nothing but trouble. Do it once and do it right, this is not the place to save a few pennies.

Bob

Bob, thanks for your input. I am actually installing the boiler, I have a small company in Norfolk, Va and there are VERY few steam systems here. I have read We got Steam Heat, the EDR book and Lost Art of Steam Heating. I could not find or recall if I had to add any value for piping in my EDR calculations, and I do not want to make a mistake. I am going to install a dropped header and add a 3" main and will be using both supply connections from the boiler, Does is help to increase the two 2" connections to 3" right away at the boiler steam pipe connections or would this be of little value since I am increasing the main to 3"

KC_Jones

If you have a measured 665 sq ft of radiation why wouldn't you use the PEG262EID rated for 685 sq ft of steam? That would be a much better match to the system. This still leaves 55,000 BTU in the pick up factor for the hot water portion which you say is only 35,000 BTU.

JudySweetland

KC_Jones said:

If you have a measured 665 sq ft of radiation why wouldn't you use the PEG262EID rated for 685 sq ft of steam? That would be a much better match to the system. This still leaves 55,000 BTU in the pick up factor for the hot water portion which you say is only 35,000 BTU.

Yes the radiation for the hot water baseboard heat is 35,000 based on 600 but per linear ft and we have 57 linear feet, which is slightly less than 35,000 BTUH. I simply did not know since this is a 2 pipe system with long mains (supply and return) and 3 stories of piping if I should calculate any additional EDR value based on piping alone, since the steam radiator EDR value is 665. I am not sure if the 1.33 factor is part of the EDR value listed in Dan's catalog of radiator EDR values or if it is just the EDR value of the radiator alone without any EDR value for the piping included. What am I missing here? Thanks.

KC_Jones

The .33 is for the piping. That is why you don't need to add anything extra. Measure the radiators and use that number against what the manufacturer lists.

Fred

The pick-up factor is added to the boiler. Dan's EDR ratings for radiators don't have a Pick-up factor added to it and should not. The pick-up factor added to the boiler is to accommodate heating requirements for all piping and radiators to bring them up to temperature. You want to use the 665 square feet of EDR and match that as closely as possible to the boiler rating.

JudySweetland

KC_Jones said:

The .33 is for the piping. That is why you don't need to add anything extra. Measure the radiators and use that number against what the manufacturer lists.

Ok done and settled then. I will install the unit matching the measured EDR. Thanks.

JudySweetland

Fred said:

The pick-up factor is added to the boiler. Dan's EDR ratings for radiators don't have a Pick-up factor added to it and should not. The pick-up factor added to the boiler is to accommodate heating requirements for all piping and radiators to bring them up to temperature. You want to use the 665 square feet of EDR and match that as closely as possible to the boiler rating.

Thank you Fred for letting me know the EDR book does not include the Pick-up factor. I feel much more confident with the boiler choice I have made. Utica PEG 262 fits the bill quiet nicely.

Any advice in increasing the header to 3" by increasing the 2" boiler connections to 3" immediately or is it ok to start off with both risers at 2" and increase at the header to the 3"?

Fred

You can increase the risers out of the boiler to 3" and that will slow the velocity of the steam coming out of the boiler, which is a good thing. If you use 3" risers, I would use a 4" header. That will help get nice dry steam and if you see your way clear to use a drop header, you will be about as good as it can get. Just make sure you use both tappings on the boiler for two risers and that all of your Mains tie directly (and individually) into your header.

JudySweetland

Fred said:

You can increase the risers out of the boiler to 3" and that will slow the velocity of the steam coming out of the boiler, which is a good thing. If you use 3" risers, I would use a 4" header. That will help get nice dry steam and if you see your way clear to use a drop header, you will be about as good as it can get. Just make sure you use both tappings on the boiler for two risers and that all of your Mains tie directly (and individually) into your header.

Great! Thanks for the "input" which will make the "output" much better! Thanks for your quick response too.

nicholas bonham-carter

Oh if only there were more contractors like you out there, with genuine concern for the quality of the installation! Congratulations!--NBC

BobC

It is gratifying to see a contractor that really wants to do it right, I hope this install gets you a lot more business by word of mouth.

Bob

KC_Jones

BobC said:

It is gratifying to see a contractor that really wants to do it right, I hope this install gets you a lot more business by word of mouth.

Bob

Us homeowners really appreciate a contractor like this! Thumbs up to you and good luck with this project, from the pictures in your other post I think you have your work cut out for you. It sounds like you are going to do good by this homeowner! Please keep us posted on everything and how it goes!

JudySweetland

nicholas bonham-carter said:

Oh if only there were more contractors like you out there, with genuine concern for the quality of the installation! Congratulations!--NBC

BobC said:

It is gratifying to see a contractor that really wants to do it right, I hope this install gets you a lot more business by word of mouth.

Bob

Wow thanks guys, I appreciate your words. I am looking forward to this installation and would not have an iota of the knowledge needed without the books and this site.

JudySweetland

Hatterasguy said:

JudySweetland said:

Any advice in increasing the header to 3" by increasing the 2" boiler connections to 3" immediately or is it ok to start off with both risers at 2" and increase at the header to the 3"?

I dearly wish you will take all the following with great interest and delay the installation of the Utica until you read it all.

I have the exact unit in 262K. It's the eight section instead of the nine which you have planned.

I have spent the last 16 weeks on it, one day each weekend, largely due to it's compromised design.

Firstly, the boiler has side outlets. That would not be a major concern, with the exception of the fact that the steam cannot GET OUT of the side outlets if the waterline is more than 1" above nominal (24"). So, any thought of using the additional water available above 25" is out of the question

Secondly, the boiler has 2.5" side tappings. You need to run 2.5" risers from BOTH side tappings up to the header. For that size, the header needs to be 4" without question. Consider a drop header if you really want dry steam.

Thirdly, and most importantly, the LWCO is placed at exactly 21.25". This gives you only 2.75" between the LWCO and the nominal waterline. There is absolutely NFW that this is sufficient. I measured it with the water meter and it's only 3.1 gallons. A system large enough that can use that boiler will never return condensate fast enough to prevent the LWCO from feeding. So, you're between a rock and a hard place. My solution was to design and install a parallel brass pipe next to the sight glass where I can mount the LWCO at 2" above the bottom of the guage glass (18.25"). This gives me another four gallons. I've begun testing on this arrangement and the jury is still out whether I can make it without additional water feed.

Fourthly, if you need a second manual reset LWCO (which I need in NYC), this boiler provides no tapping for it and the recommendation by the manufacturer to place it in the equalizer is not going to work. The unit will trip on low water in the equalizer even though the boiler has plenty of water. So, more work on placement of this LWCO is required.

Fifthly, it comes from the factory with the Cyclegard LWCO which shuts the boiler down every 20 minutes to determine if you are low on water. This makes perfect sense to ECR because you're always low on water when the boiler is operating because of the placement of the probe for the LWCO. So, it stops and feeds every 20 minutes. Nobody wants that and you need to replace this unit with Safgard which has none of the 20 minute checks.


It's a boiler that is definitely cost effective and carries a very good warranty but you'll pull your hair out getting it to perform properly.

Be forewarned.

Hattertasguy,

Thanks for the info. You have experience I am lacking. I am going to use the McDonnell 67 LWCO. It will mount to the sight glass with brass tees. Here in Virginia we only need 1 LWCO. The boiler I am using is the PEG 262 EID, not the PEG 299. However you mentioned 2.5" boiler tappings and the boiler specs from Utica specify 2" tappings. It also seems the difference in height between the boiler side tap and the 24" NWL in the Utica diagrams is 4". The original Crown boiler has very similar measurements as far a spacing when compared to the replacement Utica, and had side taps too.

But since you have raised these concerns I am going to check with Utica and make sure the current literature is correct and see what they have to say regarding the points you made. If any of the information I get from Utica will help anyone in the future I will report back. I know they will most likely put a good spin on their products and poo-poo objections, but it never hurts to ask.

I am going to install a 4" dropped header. Since I have already ordered the boiler I am somewhat stuck. No one in our area carries steam boilers so it is being shipped in. If your objections are accurate and what you describe will be problematic I am in for either a good lesson or returning an ordered boiler. I'll let ya know if your forewarning is my reality when we get the boiler installed or if Utica technical confirms (which is almost assuredly what they won't do!) the problems you describe.
Thanks for your experience and thoughts.

KC_Jones

I think the OP asked the question about upsizing the connections at the boiler. If the tapping is 2" what about a 2x3x3 Tee connected to the boiler with the shortest nipple possible. It won't help the initial exit velocity, but it should help the velocity going up the risers....I think. It still isn't perfect, but the question is, is it worth the extra cost for those few 3" fittings versus all 2" fittings?

JudySweetland

Hatterasguy said:

Apparently, Utica has a slightly different configuration for the exact same boiler. They do have the 2" outlets, which are way too small for a 262K boiler. Even my 2.5" (two of them) are marginal for steam velocity.

If you stay with the 2" risers, be sure to go up as high as you can (36" if you can do it) before turning horizontal to get to the drop header.

You might have trouble with the 67 due to the fact that it's upper connection tube wants to pass right through the side outlet. I preferred to use the probe type LWCO. You can put the probe anywhere you wish and wire to the control.

Remember that Utica does not manufacture the boiler. They sell it. ECR makes the boiler. I have discussed quite a few of my concerns with ECR directly and their answers leave a lot to be desired. Most of what I have done has become an R & D project because their information is insufficient or incorrect.

There is no need to return the boiler if you have already procured it. It will do fine for you but you must be aware of its issues before you go forward.

I have successfully put a two stage gas valve on it and it functions fine. Unfortunately, I cannot easily take advantage of it as the system won't build more than 3 ounces in a 30 minute run. You might consider it if the boiler builds pressure quickly.

Ok, thanks for the additional info. Nothing like good ol' unanticipated problems to cause double consideration at the start of an install. I am looking forward to this install regardless of the obstacles. Plan and double plan anything you want....just don't plan the outcome, LOL. We are committed to making this installation work and so will be anticipating some hurdles and conundrums. I don't want to loose any hair while scratching my head, so we'll have to put our best thinking caps on. A couple of my guys say they can't afford to loose any more hair!

KC_Jones

2-3" risers have a cross section of 14.784 in² and a 4" header has a cross section of 12.730 in². It's not perfect, but should be a good match.

JudySweetland

KC_Jones said:

I think the OP asked the question about upsizing the connections at the boiler. If the tapping is 2" what about a 2x3x3 Tee connected to the boiler with the shortest nipple possible. It won't help the initial exit velocity, but it should help the velocity going up the risers....I think. It still isn't perfect, but the question is, is it worth the extra cost for those few 3" fittings versus all 2" fittings?

KC, I am going to up both of the boiler outlet connections to 3" right away using increasers at the boiler connections, then go up as far as possible (I know I can go 30" minimum, 33" maximum) I will then increase the 3" to a 4" dropped header, with a 4" main that will connect to an already installed 3" main and a 1.5" main. I have to assume the original installers, a bizzillion years ago balanced the system piping properly with no obvious signs of pipe downsizing. Wish me luck and good thinking! Thanks for your comments.

JudySweetland

Hatterasguy said:

JudySweetland said:

KC_Jones said:

I think the OP asked the question about upsizing the connections at the boiler. If the tapping is 2" what about a 2x3x3 Tee connected to the boiler with the shortest nipple possible. It won't help the initial exit velocity, but it should help the velocity going up the risers....I think. It still isn't perfect, but the question is, is it worth the extra cost for those few 3" fittings versus all 2" fittings?

KC, I am going to up both of the boiler outlet connections to 3" right away using increasers at the boiler connections, then go up as far as possible (I know I can go 30" minimum, 33" maximum) I will then increase the 3" to a 4" dropped header, with a 4" main that will connect to an already installed 3" main and a 1.5" main. I have to assume the original installers, a bizzillion years ago balanced the system piping properly with no obvious signs of pipe downsizing. Wish me luck and good thinking! Thanks for your comments.

Don't forget that one side needs to be a T. There is no alternate skim port AFAIK.

Once you have switched to 3" risers, their height isn't so critical. The steam velocity in 3" is quite low for that boiler. As KC noted, the steam will actually pickup velocity once it hits the 4" header.............so, the 3" risers are actually overkill to a certain extent.

Ahhh.... Good to know, will give more thought to. Yes I will be using Tees to skim too. Don't want to spend more money than we have to but am glad to spend it where it will be an advantage to system efficiency and operation. Like the old adage states: an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. More will be revealed! Am going out to the site to start pipe removal, and we are replacing the wet return lines , god only knows how gooped up they are. Torch, Aerokroil and large pipe wrenches may save the day today. Thanks for added info.

KC_Jones

JudySweetland said:

Am going out to the site to start pipe removal, and we are replacing the wet return lines , god only knows how gooped up they are. .

LOL Mine were ugly to say the least! 2" pipe more than 50% clogged with "stuff". I was lucky enough to do my work in the off season. So I actually shut down and drained the boiler in the spring, opened up some pipe to let it "air out" for a couple months. That way the "goop" was just dried up crust. Yours will be interesting.

KC_Jones

Another one that I have had success with is use the grinder and make a single cut almost all the way to the threads. Take the cold chisel and put it into the cut. Pound with a hammer a few times which will act as a wedge and open the fitting up. Then put a wrench on it and unscrew. I do that first if it doesn't work, I do what Hatteras said. We all have our methods. Personally I try and save fittings before pipe (when possible) as the fittings tend to be in better shape for reuse than the pipe. Cutting pipe out of a fitting is a bit tougher though.

JudySweetland

Hatterasguy said:

JudySweetland said:

Am going out to the site to start pipe removal, and we are replacing the wet return lines , god only knows how gooped up they are. Torch, Aerokroil and large pipe wrenches may save the day today. Thanks for added info.

I recently learned a trick from Rich that eliminates all the difficulty. No torches, no Kroil, and no large pipe wrenches.

Bring the 4" grinder and buy a few cutoff wheels for metal.

Find the fitting you want to remove.

Cut the flange in two places, parallel to the axis of the pipe, 120 degrees apart. Cut almost all the way through the flange within 1/16" of the threads.

Now turn the grinder 90 degrees and connect the two cuts that you just made almost through the flange. This cut can go right through the fitting because the cut is forward of the end of the pipe.

Get a chisel and a hammer and with two hits, the 120 degree chunk will be out and the threads on the pipe will be untouched (presuming you want to reuse the pipe).

Now, use a small pipe wrench to remove the remainder of the fitting. All the force is gone.

5 minutes. No effort.

Done.

Now THAT idea kicks butt! Thanks for the tip!

Steamhead

Judy, I've put in a bunch of those Utica boilers, which are also sold as Columbias. A 3-inch header is minimal on the 262 and 299 units, and a drop header works wonders for steam quality- these guys are spot-on. There used to be a collection of drop header photos on here but I can't find it now- one was of a 262.

I've consulted in Norfolk once before, so if you need some more eyes on this thing, let me know.

KC_Jones

I would take Steamhead up on that offer. 10 minutes with him on site is worth hours on this website. I know those pics you are talking about and I can't find them either...only this link.
https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/what-is-a-drop-header/

vaporvac

As a homeowner, I might suggest a probe-type LWCO. It reduces the need to introduce fresh water to a minimum and takes the maintenance from a weekly chore to a yearly inspection. Did you buy this boiler already, I'm guessing?

KC_Jones

There is a picture of a drop header on a side outlet boiler in this thread.
http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1341652#Comment_1341652

JudySweetland

Steamhead said:

Judy, I've put in a bunch of those Utica boilers, which are also sold as Columbias. A 3-inch header is minimal on the 262 and 299 units, and a drop header works wonders for steam quality- these guys are spot-on. There used to be a collection of drop header photos on here but I can't find it now- one was of a 262.

I've consulted in Norfolk once before, so if you need some more eyes on this thing, let me know.

Steamhead, I may just take you up on your offer. There is a complex (looks complex to me) hot water loop on this boiler that is using a variety of controls (mechanical and low voltage electrical), brazed plate heat exchanger, #26 vacuum breaker and what looks to be a home made header that I need to completely understand. Looks like you work at or operate 'All Steamed Up'. How would I get in touch with you? At the 410-321-8116, who should I ask for? If you need to get with me directly for clarity on consulting fees please email: judy@sweetlandshvac.com
Thanks,
Judy

JudySweetland

KC_Jones said:

There is a picture of a drop header on a side outlet boiler in this thread.
http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1341652#Comment_1341652

KC, thank you for finding that photo. That will help us with designing the header. I got the header out yesterday and am soaking some joints overnight. Am taking the grinder, wheels and cold chisel out to the site today. Hope to get the wet return out today too. Thanks for you interest!

JudySweetland

vaporvac said:

As a homeowner, I might suggest a probe-type LWCO. It reduces the need to introduce fresh water to a minimum and takes the maintenance from a weekly chore to a yearly inspection. Did you buy this boiler already, I'm guessing?

Vaporvac, yes the boiler is due in tomorrow to our local vendor. The Utica comes with a probe type LWCO. However in earlier discussion there was a concern it was too close to the 24" water line on a boiler with side outlets. Utica specs show a measurement of 4". Will use a probe type if there is enough space between oulets, NWL and probe insertion, although I don't care for the fact that the UTICA boiler control will shut down the boiler every 10 minutes for a 90 second check, seems like that may affect efficiency and extra wear on the draft motor etc. Have you a specific probe type LWCO that you use regularly?
Thanks for the comments.

KC_Jones

The probe LWCO you are referring to is the Cyclegaurd which can be swapped out with the Safegaurd which doesn't have that shutdown feature. They are both from Hydrolevel so they can be swapped 1 for 1. It depends on manufacturer as to which one they spec. My Weil Mclain came with the Safegaurd. I would use the probe LWCO mainly because of the maintenance factor and not having to blow down a float type every week, just a yearly clean and check. Just my opinion.

Dave in QCA

As an answer to the original question, the 34% pickup factor is actually made up of two components, Piping Losses and Pickup Factor. It includes both the piping losses on a typical system with insulated mains and the pickup factor necessary so that the boiler produces sufficient steam to fully heat the connected radiation in standard conditions.

JudySweetland

Hatterasguy said:

JudySweetland said:

Now THAT idea kicks butt! Thanks for the tip!

Anytime.

I struggled with the oxy-aceteleyne torch, Kroil, 4' pipe wrench and never could budge the 2.5" fittings on the steam main.

@Rich gave me that solution. 5 minutes. Amazing.

You will need a good wire wheel on the grinder to clean up the threads, and even when you do clean them well, do not expect normal engagement. If you get three threads total you'll be doing well. Not an issue due to very low pressure.

Hatterasguy, Used the grinder tip you gave me and it worked like a charm. We've got more fittings to go and this will make it a breeze. TY