Water pushing out air vents on condensate return lines

Mark N

The vaporstat will cycle the boiler boiler off before the pressure builds to the point of forcing water out your vents. Don't use a set back and most likely the system will behave much better. You have a vapor system therefore you need a vaporstat. I don't get what you're not getting.

waterjet

Thanks Mark. I think I get it, but just trying to save some cash. I already have the vaporstat, just need to install it.

Just to clarify. Is a set back, when you turn down the heat during the day or anytime you are away?

I installed the Gorton's using galvanized reducers/adapter. Will they be ok for the long-term between the black pipe and the Gorton air valves?

Mark N

Dan Holohan himself has advised you that you need the vaporstat. You don't have enough B dimension. I've had steam heat for 25 years but it is a 1 pipe system. I learned long ago they behave much better when you leave the thermostat at 1 temp. I would look to use black pipe on the vents. Why not install the vaporstat where the pressuretroll is?

KC_Jones

If you already have the vaporstat, I am not understanding your comment about saving cash? The vaporstat will cost you less in fuel because you are keeping the pressure down. It will also make your system run much nicer. 2 psi is high even for a normal 1 pipe system let alone a vapor system like you have. Currently I don't even know what pressure my system runs at because the gauge never moves and I am using a 0-15 OUNCE gauge. This has been quoted many times on here, the Empire State Building runs on 3 PSI of steam pressure you don't need all that pressure nor do you want it. Pressure basically means you are burning fuel to heat nothing. Since you have pressure the steam isn't moving as efficiently as it can so you aren't getting everything out that you are putting in. Put it this way at 2 PSI you might as well fuel your boiler with dollar bills and not whatever fuel you are currently burning. I don't know your system that well and maybe Dan or someone else can comment on this, but generally speaking if you are still building pressure like that it means you still don't have enough venting. That's how it is on one pipe, but I am not sure about 2 pipe vapor like yours? Install the vaporstat.

waterjet

Ok, I get it and also think that having more venting would help my system. The vents were so screwed up when I started, that it's already been a major improvement, just adding the new Hoffmans on the short line and the Gortons on the longer line. How much more venting do you think I would need on my long line, if it's 1 1/2" x 40' and the return is 1" x 50'? Currently have Gorton No 2's on them. I have extra Hoffman 75s that I could add.

KC_Jones

I am not sure if venting the 2 pipe is the same as 1 pipe systems so I can't comment. That being said if it was a 1 pipe and you had to vent that much pipe that would need at least 2 Gorton #2. Again that's if it's 1 pipe, need someone who knows more about 2 pipe to comment.

Steamhead

As far as steam mains go, main vents on 2-pipe or Vapor systems are sized the same as 1-pipe.

Dry return vents on 2-pipe or Vapor systems (EXCEPT 2-pipe air-vent, where we do not vent dry returns) depend on how many radiators discharge into these returns. This can take a bit of trial and error, but you might be able to use some of your extra vents on the dry returns.

And you really do need the Vaporstat.

waterjet

"Dry return vents on 2-pipe or Vapor systems (EXCEPT 2-pipe air-vent, where we do not vent dry returns) depend on how many radiators discharge into these returns. This can take a bit of trial and error, but you might be able to use some of your extra vents on the dry returns. "

Have been reading more in "Greening Steam" and lowering the pressure seems to be the most cost effective thing to do for an old system like mine. To get it balanced and running as well as possible would take much more time and money than I can invest at this time.

I was going to add a Hoffman 75 to the long main and the long return, along with the Gorton No2's. I will have one left over. Are you saying I might want to add it to the long return?

If I really wanted to vent my 1 1/2" main line, according to the chart in "Greening Steam", I think that I would need two 3/4" tapping's and 7 Gorton No 2's. I don't ever see this happening, so lowering the pressure seems like a more likely solution.

nicholas bonham-carter

Without adequate main venting, you will have some short-cycling as the steam pushes the air out of inadequate main venting. That short-cycling will increase the running time for each cycle, which will certainly please your fuel supplier!--NBC

Mark N

Why not use the Gorton#2's to vent the mains, the Hoffman 75's to vent the returns, install the vaporstat and see how it runs. Adequate venting will lower the operating pressure. The vaporstat will keep it from going to high to cause the water to backup into the returns and out the vents.

waterjet

Sounds like a plan. Will pick up the extra piping needed today and may install tomorrow. Do you think that two Hoffman 75's on the return will suffice? Didn't plan on piping for a third one. Also checked out my thermostat today and it had been set to cycle 5 times per hour. Changed it to 2.

Mark N

Post some pictures of the end of your mains and the end of the returns.

waterjet

Mark N said:

Post some pictures of the end of your mains and the end of the returns.

Here are some photos of my mains and returns. I know that the placement is incorrect on them, being directly at the elbow.

On my long main the space is limited for expanding to two vents, so I was going to use a 3/4" to 1/2" coupling and use 1/2" pipe to a T and then out to each vent. Since a 1/2" pipe can vent a little more than two Gorton #2s, I don't think this should restrict my air flow and allow me to expand to a second Gorton #2 in the future. What do you think?

Can anyone view these photos or do I need to post them again?

waterjet

I'm installing the vaporstat today and I need some advice on the wiring. Coming to the furnace I have to black and two white wires, no ground. The black wires are attached to the old pressure control switch and the white wires are simply tied together. The vaporstat L408J1009 has three screws on the switch. A B, W, and R, with a separate ground screw. Which black and white wires to I attach to the switch? It seems to me, from looking at the schematic, that the black from the power source connects to the B terminal and the black to the furnace connects to the R terminal. Can both white wires be connected together on the W terminal?

waterjet

Here is the vaporstat

waterjet

Found an old post on here about this and read that I only need the R & B terminal, pretty much like it was on the old pressure controller, and just keep the white terminals tied together.

Just installed it this way and seems to be working fine.

SWEI

A Vaporstat is just a switch. Most electricians would wire it using two wires of the same color used for the rest of the safety string (preferably not red or black on a single phase service.) The reason you have black and white is because they used NM cable (aka Romex.)

waterjet

Vaporstat and extra air vents installed! I hope I'm finished with this project and can get back to doing other things. Used 3/4" for the two vents, instead of the 1/2". Tight fit, but should work better than before.

KC_Jones

Let us know how the system runs after the changes.

waterjet

It wasn't very cold last night, but the house stayed warm and I didn't hear any pipes rattling, like usual. This morning I turned it up to 70 when the furnace kicked in and noticed that the radiators on my longer line heated up quicker than usual, without all the noise. Some colder weather will be the true test, but I think it's much improved and I thank everyone for their input.

I am also looking to replace one of my Hoffman 17C thermostatic modules with the Barnes & Jones Cage Unit, as mentioned in "Greening Steam." Here is a link to one and I was wondering if this is the correct unit for my traps?

http://www.supplyhouse.com/pex/control/product/~product_id=600053

waterjet

Currently, I have a Hoffman 75 and a Gorton #2 on the long main and long return, with only a Hoffman 75 on the short main and short return. When the furnace was running, I noticed the Hoffman 75 on the short main hissing for a very long time. Do you think I could swap this out with the one Gorton #2 on the long return, for better venting?

vaporvac

waterjet, i was wondering if you would be kind enough to post the link on wiring the Vstat which you referenced above. I'm still trying to get mine up. what i tried didn't work. I have two for stage-firing, but if I could get one done that would help figure out the other. thank you.

waterjet

Here is the article that I found on here by doing a search with Bing.

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/129173/Vaporstat-Wiring

waterjet

Found the correct Barnes & Jones cage unit for a Hoffman 17C trap, it's unit #3500:
http://www.statesupply.com/bd1620
They also have three other replacements for this trap. An Armstrong T-Wafer, Hercules 3500H cage unit, and a Tunstall TCHF-1409. Just wondering if anyone has experience with any of these other models.

vaporvac

Thank you, waterjet. That was a good link that I didn't find in my search. I wonder why they closed all the old posts to additional comments? Sometimes that makes so much more sense than starting a new thread. I may tackle this tomorrow. The problem is my system doesn't make enough pressure to test it, at least while I'm home.

waterjet

You are quite welcome. I also could not find it when I searched from this site.

Mine seems to be working well. Only needed to cut-out when I took the temperature up two degrees. Not sure if it will do this under normal operation when it gets really cold. Just have to wait and see. Just know that the added vents and replaced traps have done a world of good.

waterjet

I just installed two Barnes & Jones cage units on the radiators that are at the end of my longest main, and I noticed a big improvement already. The furnace kicked in and not only did the radiator in our master bedroom get hot, it actually felt like the whole room had been heated, unlike before. The other radiator is downstairs in our living room and is one of the largest ones that we have, also in the room that we spend most of our time. My hope is that we won't need to set our thermostat as high to have a comfortable temperature in our bedroom and our living room. The thermostat is also in the living room, on the opposite wall as the radiator. All in all, I am pretty pleased. I now have three times the venting capacity on my long main and return and twice the venting capacity on my two most critical radiators. The short line still heats slightly faster, but I think I can live with it.

nicholas bonham-carter

waterjet said:

I just installed two Barnes & Jones cage units on the radiators that are at the end of my longest main, and I noticed a big improvement already. The furnace kicked in and not only did the radiator in our master bedroom get hot, it actually felt like the whole room had been heated, unlike before. The other radiator is downstairs in our living room and is one of the largest ones that we have, also in the room that we spend most of our time. My hope is that we won't need to set our thermostat as high to have a comfortable temperature in our bedroom and our living room. The thermostat is also in the living room, on the opposite wall as the radiator. All in all, I am pretty pleased. I now have three times the venting capacity on my long main and return and twice the venting capacity on my two most critical radiators. The short line still heats slightly faster, but I think I can live with it.

nicholas bonham-carter

still trying to get used to the different chunkiness of the new site, but the important part of this quote is the ability to feel comfortable at a lower thermostat setting, and it felt like the whole room had been heated.
this is the big win for steam-proper operation/venting, etc-comfort with lower consumption.--NBC

waterjet

Speaking of comfort, I'm now considering moving one of the Barnes & Jones cage units from the living room and putting it in an upstairs spare bedroom, that faces North West. We rarely use this room, but if we do have a guest using it during the winter months, this is the coldest room in the house, and having the living room heat up fast may not be the best idea, since that is where the thermostat is located.

Furnace is heating very well. Had it set at 67 last night and when I turned it up to 68, it only took 5.5 minutes for one of the furthest radiators to get steam and 20 minutes for the system to meet temperature on this 30 degree morning.

Moving the Barnes & Jones cage unit from the living room did seem to help maintain temperature better throughout the rest of the house. I still think that I may need to insulate the wall cavity behind the thermostat, so that the heat from the basement is not coming up and increasing the temperature on the thermostat after the system shuts down.

waterjet

Is it normal for the wet returns to always be cold? All the radiators seem to be heating, but this just seemed a little bit odd to me, After the system just finished with a cycle, the wet return near the furnace is still cold.

Fred

That is normal. They may feel slightly warm as the condensate returns but keep in mind they are filled with condensate (water) that has pretty much given up all of its heat. Also keep in mind that those wet returns are filled with water back to the verticals up to the hartford loop so they have water in them that may be from the last boiler cycle, maybe even last two boiler cycles, depending on how long they are. The returning water from a new cycle is just pushing that along to maintain a level equal to the Hartford loop.

waterjet

New pressure gauge installed and working well.

waterjet

I wanted to know, if I have five radiators on my long main and three radiators on my short main, is shutting off two radiators on the long main and one on the short main too many radiators to have shut off at one time? Furnace is slightly oversized, at 506 cf steam vs 460 cf steam for the system.

KC_Jones

Why do you want to turn them off? It is generally advised to not do it unless you are doing remodeling or service or something like that.

waterjet

I turn them off, but cracked open slightly, in the three rooms that we are not using, thinking it will save fuel. Is this not a correct way of thinking for a vapor system?

Fred

Yes, you are essentially making your boiler about 40% more over-sized than it already is. If you just want to do it for a few hours or a day or two, you probably can get by but why create problems when you don't need to? Turn as few off as possible for as short a time as possible.

KC_Jones

I don't know about vapor, but you will still have some load from those rooms because now that they aren't heated or minimally heated they will tend to pull heat from the rooms that are. The house is always trying to reach equilibrium. Will it save some fuel? Maybe I don't know if anyone could say with 100% certainty. It's your house try it and see what happens. Other than causing short cycling I don't think you will hurt anything.

waterjet

That is exactly the reason why I asked. This morning it was short cycling and one of the vents was hissing, so I turned the pressure down a bit on the vaporstat and it cycled a couple of times before meeting temperature. Also changed the CPH on the thermostat from 2 back to 3, which seems to not overshoot the temperature setting as much and may help with the short cycling. I am also going to open, at least part way, the other radiators and see how that works.

Thank you Fred and KC for your input.

Fred

I wouldn't do it. Short cycling will occur, Extra wear and tear on the boiler gas value, probably will require you to try to rebalance the remaining radiators, maybe even put smaller vents on them to slow the steam down so those rooms won't get too hot. That may add yet another layer of added pressure . Maybe you should look into a two stage gas valve and fire on the lower stage, if that option can be done on your boiler. I don't know how long it would take to recover the cost but I'd rather see you do something by design than do something and see what happens (especially when you know what will happen isn't likely to be all that good).