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STEAM RADIATOR IDENTIFICATION TO MAKE CALCULATIONS..THURSDAY UPDATE..PHOTOS...

ww
ww Member Posts: 298
edited November 2014 in THE MAIN WALL
this radiator is 3" wide X 45"long X 23" high...has 3 tubes in each section,looks like a slender type radiator.

1.I need to figure out the square feet of each section so I can figure out the total of the radiator.
2.I then would need to know how to figure out the cubic feet of air per square foot of EDR.

I don't see this information in the Balancing Steam Systems for this radiator..it may be there but not sure which this one is.

I want to figure out how much air is in the radiator. I was wondering if the above measurements can be used for this and if there was a formula that can be used to figure this all out if you didn't have to guide or it wasn't listed.

I do notice in some manufacturers descriptions of their products charts with the edr..but can't identify this one.
is there an id plate or id number somewhere on these radiators?

Comments

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,364
    It's a small-tube radiator. If you have Dan's "E.D.R.", use the charts for the Burnham Slenderized rads.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,501
    In the LAOSH they list a three tube thin tube radiator that is 23" tall as 2 sq ft per section.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Pughie1
    Pughie1 Member Posts: 135
    Bob,
    Too much information, Steamhead is trying to sell one of Dan's
    books.
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 298
    ok..what is LAOSH...where can i see that...and how do i convert to cubic feet of air per square foot of edr?

    i saw some of those radiator company charts and did some calculations based on approximations and one was 2 sq ft per section.
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
    Every darn radiator and Lost Art of Steam Heating...the latter is a must for every homeowner with steam.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,827
    http://store.heatinghelp.com/Heating-Books-s/1829.htm?searching=Y&sort=7&cat=1829&show=10&page=4
    You can buy the TLAOSH as a paper book or an ebook. The EDR book and the venting guide are also in the store. I don't have the EDR book, but do have the others and they are great highly recommended!
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,364

    Bob,
    Too much information, Steamhead is trying to sell one of Dan's
    books.

    I cited "E.D.R." because it's the best radiator reference out there. Period.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • R2.0
    R2.0 Member Posts: 99
    Heating Museum

    Replacement Boiler Sizing Chart

    You'll lose at least a day in the Museum.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,827

    Bob,
    Too much information, Steamhead is trying to sell one of Dan's
    books.

    People are referred to books on this site all the time, I have done it many times. With all the free information and help that is available I don't think telling people to just buy a book is a big deal. In addition as Steamhead said these books are the definitive reference for steam. So if you consider it trying to sell books, even if that's what it is I don't see anything wrong with that.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
    I actually thought he was just trying to make a joke (which evidently fell flat). Maybe a smiley face was in order.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,827
    If that is the case...I apologize. Sarcasm doesn't translate well on the net unless it is made obvious.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Pughie1
    Pughie1 Member Posts: 135
    KC - Vaporvac is correct, just my sick humor I guess. I have all of Dan's books, they are full of valuable info, wouldn't be without them.
    -
    "Pughie"
    KC_Jones
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,827
    LOL no worries! I apologize for coming at you unnecessarily. Jokes and sarcasm are tough online...as vaporvac said add a smiley face! ;)
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 298
    ok..thanks everyone..and R2.0 for those charts and links..great stuff....here are some photos of radiators...big ones are arco american radiator 3 tube. and small ones burnham 4 tube..
    you can read the names on the side of the radiators if you enlarge them.

    GOOD NEWS..after going thru a number of mockup calculations using various square feet per section...and going over the drawings and vent charts in BALANCING STEAM SYSTEMS USING A VENT CHART...

    all the radiators got hot and heated the house no problem...so all this calculating paid off...previous methods involving charts showing what number vents to use didn't work as well as this..i used maid o mist c and d vents.

    I still want to know where the figure CUBIC FEET OF AIR PER SQUARE FOOT OF EDR comes from. If anyone knows please let me know. Thanks
  • EDR is measured in square feet of radiation-a measure of a radiators capacity to radiate heat, or of a boiler to supply that amount of heat to the radiators.
    I think the cubic feet measurement to which you refer is that of the amount of air from the boiler, pipes, and radiators which has to be let out by the vents before the steam can come in.--NBC
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 298
    thanks for the input..but in this case that's not what i mean.

    Balancing Steam Systems Using a Vent Chart has a section with a number you multiply the square feet of the radiator by to get the cubic feet of air per square foot of edr...i want to know how to figure that out.

    I did all the calculations based on what I thought would work and to tell you the truth i ran all the numbers high and low...and they would have all needed a c or d vent so it really doesn't matter..but i am just curious on this one. thanks

    take a look at that booklet i refer to and you'll see what i mean if you have it.
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    ww said:

    thanks for the input..but in this case that's not what i mean.

    Balancing Steam Systems Using a Vent Chart has a section with a number you multiply the square feet of the radiator by to get the cubic feet of air per square foot of edr...i want to know how to figure that out.

    I did all the calculations based on what I thought would work and to tell you the truth i ran all the numbers high and low...and they would have all needed a c or d vent so it really doesn't matter..but i am just curious on this one. thanks

    take a look at that booklet i refer to and you'll see what i mean if you have it.

    wondering if you have a different version than I have. I don't see anything about getting cubic feet of air per square foot of EDR. What page are you looking at?

  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,827
    It's on page 14 of the balancing steam book. Just below the cubic foot numbers for pipe.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Just vent the mains, with Gorton 2's, until the resistance to flow is as low as you can get (1-2 ounces back-pressure), during the initial steaming phase.
    Put slower radiator vents on like Hoffman 40's, or 1-A's, and all the mains will fill first, and then the steam will travel up to the rads simultaneously.--NBC
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 298
    thank you kc jones...you see what i am referring to here. maybe you can figure that one out?

    ok..that sounds like a logical thing to do to hold back the steam and build it up into the mains first..i do have a gorton 2 and 1 on the long main and a hoffman 75 and gorton 1 on the short main.

    the cfm of venting at 1 oz of a hoffman 40 is 0.042 and a maid o mist c is 0.283 and a maid o mist d is 0.341.

    I read that there are two schools of thought on this issue regarding venting fast and slow. i also read that the lower steam pressure the better.

    the other day i put the boiler on from a cold start and there wasn't even a call for heat. the house was really cold and the steam started to reach the radiator valves in a short time.

    so i guess this issue is open to debate here and i surely would like to hear all sides.

    as a matter of fact i have a bunch of hoffman 40's that i can put to the test as well when i get a chance.
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    KC_Jones said:

    It's on page 14 of the balancing steam book. Just below the cubic foot numbers for pipe.

    On page 14, my Balancing Steam has a story about "can you vent too fast". Page 13 is the table for traps.
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 298
    yes...they are great articles loaded with information.
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 298
    i agree you both abracadabra and hatterasguy ...you can vent too fast..it turns into a game sometimes of seeing where the hogs are..and slowing them down from eating all the steam up...

    i'm finding in this game it takes alot of patience and observation...and it seems success is a blend of alot of different things.

    it's liked giving a horse a bucket of oats and molasses with carrots...and a bale of hay..which one do you think the horse will eat first?
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,599
    ww said:

    thanks for the input..but in this case that's not what i mean.

    Balancing Steam Systems Using a Vent Chart has a section with a number you multiply the square feet of the radiator by to get the cubic feet of air per square foot of edr...i want to know how to figure that out.

    I did all the calculations based on what I thought would work and to tell you the truth i ran all the numbers high and low...and they would have all needed a c or d vent so it really doesn't matter..but i am just curious on this one. thanks

    take a look at that booklet i refer to and you'll see what i mean if you have it.

    Those numbers are from my research. I found the amount of water volume each type of radiator would hold. Once I had that, it was simple to convert it to how much air each radiator would hold.

    Dan
    Retired and loving it.
    KC_Jones
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948

    ww said:

    thanks for the input..but in this case that's not what i mean.

    Balancing Steam Systems Using a Vent Chart has a section with a number you multiply the square feet of the radiator by to get the cubic feet of air per square foot of edr...i want to know how to figure that out.

    I did all the calculations based on what I thought would work and to tell you the truth i ran all the numbers high and low...and they would have all needed a c or d vent so it really doesn't matter..but i am just curious on this one. thanks

    take a look at that booklet i refer to and you'll see what i mean if you have it.

    Those numbers are from my research. I found the amount of water volume each type of radiator would hold. Once I had that, it was simple to convert it to how much air each radiator would hold.

    Dan
    @DanHolohan‌ Do you include that with the "Balancing Steam Systems"? I don't seem to see that in the pdf I got.
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 298
    the information you seek is on page 14 just after the vent capacity charts.
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 298
    thanks Dan...this is great stuff!
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    Nope.. nothing there. page 14 and 15 are the tidbit about "Can You Vent too fast?" Ordered the ebook 3 years ago. Maybe that was something that was added later.
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 298
    it's just before that after the vent info..how much air is in the pipe and how much in the radiator are the headings with figures. maybe.