Gas steam boiler replaced - do I the chimney relined? (Massachusetts)

OccamsShaver

1920s home, original boiler (!) was just replaced with a new Burnham. The plumber who installed it tells me that I need a liner. I had a chimney contractor come inspect it yesterday and he tells me that I don't. Plumber says the chimney contractor is a "dumb ****" due to his advice. Do I get a third opinion on this?'

Thanks.

Jack

Plumber wins again!

nicholas bonham-carter

A little more detail will help us advise you. Are you burning oil, or gas? Is the present chimney lined with anything? Is the chimney location on an outside wall?--NBC

Robert O'Connor_12

In the Great State of New Jersey when replacing a fuel fired appliance, you are required to submit counter form F-370. This verification as to the condition of the existing chimney puts the installer in a "responsible" role. If the installer can't verify it in good working condition it puts the onus of responsibility on the inspector. If your contractor isn't willing to for what ever reason verify that the existing chimney is in adequate working order, I'd believe him. The inspector should always error on the side of safety.
More than likely, you'll be installing that liner if your state has same or similar requirement.
Only way out would be to get the chimney contractor to fill out the form.
Get a third party opinion. Someone that can't profit from the decision.
Good luck!

Eric_32

Here is MA Plumbing Boards interpretation on it:

http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/docs/dpl/boards/pl/exception-to-lining-an-existing-chimney.pdf

icesailor

OccamsShaver said:

1920s home, original boiler (!) was just replaced with a new Burnham. The plumber who installed it tells me that I need a liner. I had a chimney contractor come inspect it yesterday and he tells me that I don't. Plumber says the chimney contractor is a "dumb ****" due to his advice. Do I get a third opinion on this?'

Thanks.

The Chimney Liner'er never learned that some people who are ignorant, and they should keep their mouths shut so as to not show their ignorance. Or open their mouths and remove all doubt.

Its in the Gas Code in Massachusetts. If Ignorant and the rest of them don't wise up, the State will take chimney lining under the Sheet Metal code requirements and he will have to get a Sheet Metal License. Which. because he didn't get one before from his "experience", he will have to apprentice for three to five years and take a test.

Then, listen to him/them howl.

Jack

I'm surprised that MA has "keyholed" 54. I am especially surprised that the onus for complying is on the homeowner, who is not a pro. As well, one of the key factors in oil to gas conversions is the requirement that the flue be cleaned. Back in '91 just before the new codes recognized the need for lining I am aware of an installation where a gas appliance replaced an old oil unit. The flue was not cleaned. The condensation "washed" the soot off the interior chimney walls, settled down at the bottom of the vent connector, effectively sealing it and the woman living in the home died of CO.

The other thing is they reference NFPA 211 as a requirement. Go ahead and find me a chimney that meets 211. I spoke with a mason/sweep years ago and his comment was that when he finished a masonry chimney he would certify that it met 211. He offered that if called back to inspect it 12 months later, he would not.

MA has the oldest chimneys in North America. Masonry chimneys are excellent architectural devices. They are terrible mechanical devices. It's eleventh century technology venting 21st century devices. I am surprised that architects and builders continue to $pec and build them. Everyone knows you should only vent with PVC.

icesailor

@Jack:

Massachusetts hasn't "keyholed" NFPA 54, they just started enforcing it.

In Massachusetts, the gas code is enforced by the State Board of Examiners of Plumbers and Gas Fitters. Oil Burners are covered by the Department of Public Safety and are enforced by whomever they appoint. Usually the local fire departments. Who appoint some pet person to enforce it. Allowing for a large amount of personal decisions (on the designated inspectors part) as to what the code is about. There is a constant battle with local fire departments over interpretations for oil burners and oil storage.

As gar as gas appliances, we all take 6 hours of Continuing Education every year or we can't renew our licenses. 3 hours of gas, three hours of plumbing. Plumbing & Gas inspectors are required to be licensed by the Board and have 12 hours per year. Its the Plumbing & Gas Board that is enforcing the appropriate Natural and LP gas provisions of the appropriate NLFP codes as to venting the various vent category's.

Someone called me last week from where I worked that calls me about technical questions. He is an HVAC person and should NOT be venting gas appliances because he is not a licensed gas fitter. He has told me about numerous PVC venting situations he has run in to where the PVC exhaust venting was tan, brown, or black and burned off. From overheating gas furnaces.

You never answered. Are you personally/financially connected to manufacturers that recommend PVC exhaust venting on their equipment? In spite of all the anecdotal evidence to the contrary, you still insist that it is the absolute cheap route for venting gas appliances. When better although more expensive products are available. They said the same about Ultra-Vent and Plexco. Until the Canadians outlawed it. Then, the USA followed suit. Canada seems to be more concerned about consumers and less about manufacturers making money off of unsafe products. In the USA, its the other way around. A few people can be injured or killed. As long as someone is making money, Its OK.

Jack

No Ice, I am not connected to anyone recommending PVC. It was intended as a joke, based upon previous posts and discussions I've participated in. Jokes are tough on the Internet, and I apologize for the poor taste. By way of background over the years I've installed miles of chimney products, all fuel, B vent. I was the Z-Flex and Selkirk rep in New England for several years when the efficiency of equipment increased and the codes began to change. I did an enormous amount of contractor training on chimneys, their operation and the new equipment and how it affects them specifically related to re-lining.

Again, my apologies for the bad joke. Thanks for calling me out so quickly!

R2.0

Per the link to the "exception" to 54, I don't think the OP's situation quite qualifies. From the link:

"NFPA 54
-
2002 10.5.4.2 states:
Chimneys shall be lined in accordance with NFPA 211,
Standard for Chimneys,
Fireplaces, Vents, and Solid Fuel
-
Burning Appliances
.
Exception: Existing chimneys shall be permitted to have their use continued when an appliance
is replaced by an appliance of similar type, input rating, and efficiency.
The Board interprets this
exception as follows:
Similar Type: Oil to Gas or Gas to Gas
Input Rating: The new appliance is within 5% of the appliance being replaced
Efficiency: Fan assisted appliances may not replace atmospheric appliances"

Per the OP, the boiler replaced was the original in a 1920's home. I would seriously doubt that any modern gas fired boiler meets the efficiency requirement. The exception makes a reference to power venting, but that doesn't address the base issue: higher efficiency combustion means lower temperature flue gasses, which means higher likelihood of condensation in the chimney. So while the OP's installation might come in under the letter of the exception, it might be a good idea to get it lined anyway.

Steamhead

icesailor said:

@Jack:
You never answered. Are you personally/financially connected to manufacturers that recommend PVC exhaust venting on their equipment? In spite of all the anecdotal evidence to the contrary, you still insist that it is the absolute cheap route for venting gas appliances. When better although more expensive products are available. They said the same about Ultra-Vent and Plexco. Until the Canadians outlawed it. Then, the USA followed suit. Canada seems to be more concerned about consumers and less about manufacturers making money off of unsafe products. In the USA, its the other way around. A few people can be injured or killed. As long as someone is making money, Its OK.

That was "HDE", not Jack.

Steamhead

I would assume that since the (allegedly licensed) chimney contractor said it didn't need lining, and it failed for some reason, the chimney contractor would be held responsible.

But then, I don't live in Massachusetts.

icesailor

Jack said:

No Ice, I am not connected to anyone recommending PVC. It was intended as a joke, based upon previous posts and discussions I've participated in. Jokes are tough on the Internet, and I apologize for the poor taste. By way of background over the years I've installed miles of chimney products, all fuel, B vent. I was the Z-Flex and Selkirk rep in New England for several years when the efficiency of equipment increased and the codes began to change. I did an enormous amount of contractor training on chimneys, their operation and the new equipment and how it affects them specifically related to re-lining.

Again, my apologies for the bad joke. Thanks for calling me out so quickly!

Maybe I mistook you for someone else who was absolutely adamant about using PVC to exhaust vent condensing boilers. When the manufacturers of PVC specifically do not list their product to be used for venting exhaust, While the equipment manufacturers promote it. In spit of what the manufacturers require.

I vented my share with PVC, not realizing that the manufacturers of PVC didn't approve it. I replaced a fair amount of Ultra-Vent and Plexco venting too. After a time, I noticed all the Ruud Power Vented water heaters had tan or brown PVC vent pipes. Who knew.

Asking a supplier about it was about as successful as asking my unruly children if they ate the fresh cooked blueberry pie we were having for desert. None had touched it. The dog or the cats must have eaten it.

OccamsShaver

Can someone please translate for the ignorant layman here? :-)

icesailor

@Steamhead:

"" That was "HDE", not Jack. ""

Sorry about that:

icesailor

Steamhead said:

I would assume that since the (allegedly licensed) chimney contractor said it didn't need lining, and it failed for some reason, the chimney contractor would be held responsible.

But then, I don't live in Massachusetts.

Steamhead:

Because the licensed plumber or gas fitter who takes out the gas permit is legally and code responsible for the venting of the appliance, and inspected by the Gas Inspector, the inspector doesn't really care a rats rectum who if how it was made to meet code, it has to meet what is now amended in the Massachusetts Fuel Gas Code.

What they teach us and teach the inspectors is proscribed by the Board. You also can't get a final inspection unless there is a battery powered and hard wired CO detector on every floor if you do any permitted gas change. They are really serious about CO poisonings. They even posted a place where we can find out the winter snow levels so as to calculate how high above the 12" above the snow line to go with sidewall venting. And it isn't 12" below grade in a pit.

Ross_24

To put it simply, yes you need a liner.

In your situation code requires it and I certainly wouldn't try to get around it using an exception. I would caution against putting your safety in the hands of a 100 year old chimney and hopefully your local inspector would agree.

In this case, listen to your plumber. Good luck with your project!

R2.0

Also, having just had 2 flues relined, when a "chimney contractor" says a chimney doesn't need a lining, he may really be saying "I don't want to do a bid/install a liner on this chimney." Sort of like when a store sales-flunkie says "The factory discontinued that" instead of "we are out of stock."

Robert O'Connor_12

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/915223#Comment_915223

icesailor

Maybe this will help:

NFPA 54 says "Similar" but Massachusetts says "Exact same". And you can't replace a non-fan assisted appliance with a fan assisted appliance to comply. All need working CO detectors.

http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/docs/dpl/boards/pl/exception-to-lining-an-existing-chimney.pdf

OccamsShaver

R2.0 said:

Also, having just had 2 flues relined, when a "chimney contractor" says a chimney doesn't need a lining, he may really be saying "I don't want to do a bid/install a liner on this chimney." Sort of like when a store sales-flunkie says "The factory discontinued that" instead of "we are out of stock."

I hear you. He seemed disinclined to doing it, mentioning how my roof is a very difficult roof to work on.

icesailor

OccamsShaver said:

R2.0 said:

Also, having just had 2 flues relined, when a "chimney contractor" says a chimney doesn't need a lining, he may really be saying "I don't want to do a bid/install a liner on this chimney." Sort of like when a store sales-flunkie says "The factory discontinued that" instead of "we are out of stock."

I hear you. He seemed disinclined to doing it, mentioning how my roof is a very difficult roof to work on.

I've seen roofs that I really didn't want to look at from the ground. Let alone work on them.

Often staging the roof to meet safety codes will cost more than the time and cost to install it.

OccamsShaver

Here's an update:
The town inspector had no issues with the installation. The next day I had another chimney contractor come out. He assured me that I do not need a liner. He said that I may have needed a liner if the diameter of the exhaust pipe (probably the wrong terminology) were larger. He told me that I didn't need a sweep, and that I need a cap and crown. So the plumber tells me I do need the chimney relined and two chimney guys tell me that I don't.

KC_Jones

What is their reasoning for saying it doesn't? Do they just say it doesn't and walk away? I would be curious to hear their reasoning? I can tell you in my house the gas appliance has been eating the chimney for years. I am scheduled to get a new B vent installed after this heating season as my chimney can not be lined (they did interesting chimneys back then). I am curious why they don't think your chimney won't get eaten up from the acidic flue gases? I know every house is different, but this thread has me really curious.

Bob Harper

What were the credentials of those chimney contractors? Were they untrained, uncertified hacks, were they just CSIA Certified Chimney Sweeps or were they F.I.R.E.-Service Certified Fireplace and Chimney Inspectors who were properly trained how to inspect and taught the IRC, NFPA 211, and '54/ IFGC as they apply to venting?
Mass. has some of the strictest regs. in the country but the state code is not all. You still must comply with the listed instructions of the appliance, which will surely refer you to '54 and '211. Basically, you must prove the chimney does Not need to be relined. Otherwise, it will need it. Since you're changing the efficiency, a full Level II inspection is triggered by '211, which undoubtedly would indicate the need for a listed liner.

OccamsShaver

I find this to be a strange and confusing situation. I understand the rationales posted here, while at the same time two chimney contractors (CSIA, I believe) tell me no and the town inspector approved. I have pretty much zero knowledge of chimneys, flues, and venting issues. Should I have a F.I.R.E certified contractor look at it?

icesailor

I never like to assume anything, but a chimney that is too large can be worse than one that is too small. If you look at the sizing tables, it has to fit into a parameter of the BTU outlet of the appliance, the size of the flue and the length of the flue. It can be too small, too big. Too short or too long. Each one is calculated differently. I didn't know how to properly do it until I took a CEU for keeping my license and it was carefully explained and we were given a test to be sure we understood it.

RobG

I don't understand why the chimney contractors didn't want to take your money? I guarantee that the building inspector didn't get on the roof as well.

icesailor

I've seen roofs and chimneys that there isn't enough money to get me up there. I've done more than my share of high altitude work. I prefer a crawl space. Its harder to fall off a crawl space than a roof.

RobG

icesailor said:

I've seen roofs and chimneys that there isn't enough money to get me up there. I've done more than my share of high altitude work. I prefer a crawl space. Its harder to fall off a crawl space than a roof.

How many inspectors have you seen actually get on a roof?

SWEI

One just last month here.

icesailor

RobG said:

icesailor said:

I've seen roofs and chimneys that there isn't enough money to get me up there. I've done more than my share of high altitude work. I prefer a crawl space. Its harder to fall off a crawl space than a roof.

How many inspectors have you seen actually get on a roof?

I had one inspector that wouldn't go into a crawlspace through an opening in a floor with a hatch unless there was a permanently affixed stairway leading to the crawl space. He would fail the inspection until it was installed to his approval. He also would fail any rough inspection where a vertical vent stack wasn't absolutely plumb/vertical in both planes through the roof. As he viewed it from the ground.

When he was engaged in the business of plumbing, many of his vent terminations didn't meet his later criteria for inspections.

R2.0

Here's a basic question: is this your "lifetime" house? How long are you intending on being there?

j a_2

I am pretty sure the installer had safety in mind..Maybe it was a communication error…There a publicly available rules,laws and regulations…The plumber carries the liability for the entire job, i would listen to him….That should have been all discussed prior to the install, not after…the fact….At least that is how it is in Mass..