If The Boiler Circulator Fails?

Docfletcher

What symptoms arise?

Gordy

No heat would be a sure sign.
Boiler reaching high limit very quickly. Do to lack of circulation.

Docfletcher

Would the heating zone circulators take it's function over or otherwise hide the fact that it's not working?

Gordy

So your p/s piped.

No do to closely spaced t's hydraulically separating the two loops primary, and secondary.

It's possible some heated water may gravity flow into secondary, but not enough to heat very well. That's if well placed check valves do not exist.

Docfletcher

P?S piped???

No Check Valves

Well, heat works good. Circ is so quiet, can't hear it even with mechanic stethoscope. Does not seem to get as hot as the heating zone circ's. Can't hear water flowing through it. Must be OK though since it's toasty warm in here. I'm not happy with what I think is to much condensate from drain hose. (Weil McLain GV4 series 2. Sometimes condensates even when water is 140 or above, other times there is no condensate.

Fixed leak today on recently installed indirect, surprisingly hard to find.

Gordy

Some how I'm picturing the guy who opens the refridgerator door really fast just a crack to see if he can catch the little man turning the light on inside.

icesailor

You have a Series 2 GV. How many circulators do you have? Unless someone piped it Primary/Secondary (P/S) the thermostatic mixer inside and under the top cover provided the primary loop and is supposed to by-pass cold water going in to the boiler, returning from the system on start up, back into the system. Excessive exhaust condensation CAN be a sign that the thermostatic valve has failed. It can not be repaired with new parts. It CAN be modified to work.

You said earlier that you cleaned out the fire area, removed the cone and found rust particles in the bottom and exhaust. That is often a sign that the boiler is condensing excessive amounts of water from the exhaust because the mixer has failed. The GV was NOT designed as a "Condensing Boiler", but as a "Boiler That Condenses". There's a difference.

You really need to post photos of the boiler and the surrounding piping. Especially circulators and their relationship to each other.

Here is the Series 2 GV boiler install manual. Look at page 7. It shows an install where the internal circulator is the only one, with the internal thermostat acting as the primary loop. The later drawings with multiple zones show the true Primary/Secondary piping. It was my experience from where I worked that the HVAC/Scorched Air contractors took on these installs with AC/Heat and air handlers. They were thrilled to have a circulator already installed inside the boiler. If you don't have your boiler manual, here it is. It carefully explains the operating and mechanical theory's behind it.

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/gv-boiler/gv2manual.pdf

Docfletcher

ICE, You have confused me with another poster. This I did not do (You said earlier that you cleaned out the fire area, removed the cone and found rust particles in the bottom and exhaust.)

In earlier threads it was explained to me about the thermostat possibly failed. (Probably has failed). However I don't want to cripple the boiler this time of year to try and do the fix. The plug on mine is the black plug. It's my understanding it should be easier to remove than the blue plug used on some.

Here is return manifold....

http://screencast.com/t/SSVg4FGMdk

2 circs each one serving 3 zones ( 2 zones on the right hand circ not currently used)

http://screencast.com/t/apY1KZ6ChmX

Here is the supply manifold above the two gree circ's. I know it's not pretty.

http://screencast.com/t/HP5VSRU2

Docfletcher

Ice here is one of the reply's from you when we were talking about the mixing valve.

September 14
Plugging Holes:

Usually, you just need to plug the hole. Re-piping is an option. Like Tim said, get the Tech Bulletin. There was a long and comprehensive discussion on this issue last year.

It sounds like you might have a leak in the High Side of the indirect, leaking back into the low side boiler pressure. That temperature and thermal lag can be due to a bad thermostat. If you find the discussion, there is a guy I know who posted here. There is a difference in the colors of the thermostat valve. You need to find out. One is not so hard to get out, the other is extremely difficult to get out. That person chose to replace and re-pipe the whole boiler because they couldn't get the plug off. He had the wrong color.

icesailor

Did you look under the top cover for the other circulator? I doubt that it was removed. Too much work. A lot of installers didn't know how those series 1 and series 2 worked. It is supposed to act as a primary/system pump. I saw a lot of installations where the HVAC's used it as the only primary pump. No other pumps with zone valves y like yours.

If you have not changed to the new replacement control, that controller controls the circulator under the cover. That control may be bad and that circulator isn't even running. So that it may be just adding a lot of restriction to your system. If the thermostatic valve is stuck mostly open, and the boiler gets hot quickly, you won't have condensation issues. If you have a situation where you get long runs of cold water

Docfletcher

Here is the undercover photo...

http://screencast.com/t/2D3aBHAIUKy

I do have 120v out of the control and at the circulator under the taco nameplate cover wire nuts. So I think the control board is OK.

The only other circulator in the system is the Grundfos for the indirect. Here is photo of new piping after the contender install. The circ is on the supply (HOT) side.

http://screencast.com/t/apY1KZ6ChmX

icesailor

If you look at your installation manual, or the one I posted, you will see that that piping isn't what Weil-McLain recommended. And a reason that the Series 3 and 4 came with two circulators.

I'll have to go back and refresh my memory about what your problems are.

icesailor

So, what exactly are your problems?

There aren't many Series 1's or 2's that haven't had the modified control replacement and not many that have working mixers.

Do you have this bulletin for your boiler?

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/gv-boiler/gv1control.pdf

Docfletcher

I do not have nor have I seen that bulletin.
My control 1013-100 only has power, purge, igniter, & valve lights.

My most pressing concern is how much make up water this boiler has seen over the last few years. I have no way to impart that to you, but suffice it to say there were undiscovered leaks and 3 or 4 PRV blow off's.

That's all behind me now as I replaced the high limit control and all the zone valves and of course the PRV.

One issue is that the high limit is not accurate, I have to set it to 165F to get the flame off at 180F. The fixed low limit set at 140F is very accurate.

Other than that it's just a matter of the mixing valve, which I most likely will tackle in the spring. I will attempt to plug the hole with a 1/2" upside down cap insertion. It's my understanding to use the AC type of cap.

Lastly I worry about short cycling as 2 zones only have 12'
of fin tube Rads. There are no split zones or anything like that here. Each zone is a home run. Soon I will be putting a upstairs and downstairs bath on one zone, using reverse piping as Swee suggested. Together they will only have 12' of Runtal. The saving grace (I hope) is that the family room, 1 bedroom, and the living room area zones are always on. That's about 75 feet of fin tube.

Docfletcher

In the mixing valve housing there is this plug in the side. I wonder if I pulled that plug if it would be possible to force the thermostat closed. If one could do that it would be the same a plugging the hole.

http://screencast.com/t/Zg92cQKEcO4

icesailor

It might open again. Being open isn't a problem as much. Being mostly closed is worse.

You have Taco 572 wax motor zone valves. You mention "short cycling". What kinds of thermostats do you have? Honeywell round T87's? If so, are the heat anticipators set to 1.2 amps? They come at .04 and will short cycle like crazy at .04 amps.

Replace the temperature controller. They are cheap. Set the "High" for 160, Cut down on the short cycling with cooler water.

Docfletcher

Honeywell TH5220D1029 & TH210D1009 and a older Magicstat made by Honeywell.

Thanks for the help

Docfletcher

I'm sure now that the boiler circulator is not working. I have the 120V at both the control board and at wire nuts under the circulator electrical box cover. So Either the cartridge is bad, or the capaciter or both are bad. This of course means that the heating zone circulators and indirect water heater circulator are doing the boiler circulators job.

I can't be sure but it might have something to do with the limit control not sensing water temp correctly.

icesailor

Docfletcher said:

I'm sure now that the boiler circulator is not working. I have the 120V at both the control board and at wire nuts under the circulator electrical box cover. So Either the cartridge is bad, or the capaciter or both are bad. This of course means that the heating zone circulators and indirect water heater circulator are doing the boiler circulators job.

I can't be sure but it might have something to do with the limit control not sensing water temp correctly.

You HAVE to use a "Amp-Clamp" on it to see if it is drawing amps. Just because it has voltage doesn't mean it is drawing any. And the amps are very low. Less than an Amp. If the motor is bad, it is usually hot. An Alalog clamp on the lowest setting will barely show any activity. A digital one will show something. I don't know anyone who ever replaced a capacitor on a 007. Many of us just buy a whole 007 because they are cheap and heavily discounted. The parts needed can cost far more than the new circulator. Leave the black pump housing in place. A new pump is interchangeable. Don't waste money on an IFC.

Its still possible that the old board is bad. The bad boards on the GV Series 1 and 2 did many strange things.

If you want a third world way to check the motor, get a cord whip, disconnect the circulator from the wires from the control, connect the wires to the cord whip, and plug it in. If it runs, the board is bad. If it hums and gets hot, it may have fried the old board.

Docfletcher

Gets hotter on bottom than top. Never gets so hot you can't keep your hand on it. In contrast to boiler circ there is no way you can keep your hand on any of the other circ's.

I will do the 3rd world test. The replacement is the 007-F5.

Docfletcher

Wired it direct. Does not hum. Did not seem to get hotter either so I think it's toast.

No telling how long the boilers been running with a dead circ.

Docfletcher

icesailor said:

If you look at your installation manual, or the one I posted, you will see that that piping isn't what Weil-McLain recommended. And a reason that the Series 3 and 4 came with two circulators.

I'll have to go back and refresh my memory about what your problems are.

I assume your speaking of the page 10 piping diagram.
Not sure why we set up the way we did but it might of had something to do with money. When we put the boiler in we did see that in the manual Weil Mclain explained such piping was not required. (page 10). We took it as optional. For seven zones using circulators was expensive so we used 2 circulaters with zone valves. At that time (1994) I think the savings were about $350.00.

icesailor

I would have used zone valves also. Its hard to over pump a system with zone valves and one pump. But it is really easy to over pump a single zone with individual pumps.

I always considered zone valves as motorized flow check valves. In the quest to get systems over pumped with circulators, they came out with the IFC's. How do you drain a zone, with the circulator mounted on the supply side with a IFC and fix a leak? You can't.

Fortunately, all the houses I drained, had never gotten any IFC's in the circulators. Otherwise, unless the purging was set up properly, you couldn't drain it without breaking the flanges, Or, you didn't notice and had lots of splits in the spring. And none concealed in a wall.

Docfletcher

I ordered a Taco 007 yesterday. Then went downstairs to check the failed Taco again. I did not want to believe it died. Went over it again wanting to prove it out one way or the other. To my mind it's dead. I'm not a parts changer so I was reluctant to relent. Ended up ordering a new Taco 007.

i could not find a 007 45-RP anywhere so I contacted Taco, they informed that that model has a brass cartridge. Boilers come that way because after testing and storage the steel cartridges would rust.

So tell me, since you brought up over pumping earlier... placing a working circulator on the boiler isn't going to cause over pumping is it? I mean there will be 3 circulators on the hot side out of the boiler and 1 (The one on the boiler) on the return side.

I will just change the motor and cartridge leaving the housing in place as you suggested. Thanks

Don

icesailor

When the old circulator was working, no one knew the difference. I doubt that anyone will know the difference with a new one.

I'm interested about what Taco said about the brass cartridge circulator. and the rust. I've seen Taco cartridges in some pretty nasty water. The only thing I ever saw go bad was the vanes on the impellor wore off.

If you are a smart Sparky or know one, you could check the outer windings on the circulator. They are dry and not exposed to water. The cartridge has an outer shell but inside is the rest of the motor in water. It is the wet part of the rotor that fails. It uses electromagnet force to spin the rotor inside the cartridge.

My wholesaler always had a few replacement cartridges on hand. All in open boxes. None cheap and close to what a discounted new complete circulator cost. And any time I ever tried one, the cartridge was either too long or two short.

Docfletcher

Yes the cartridge by itself was more expensive than the whole circulater. Here is what Taco said...

From: Ted Gregoriadis
Message: Donald, Thank you for contacting Taco Technical Services. This is a cast iron pump with a bronze cartridge sold to boiler manufacturers. They use the bronze cartridge because they wet test the boilers and if they used the standard steel cartridge, it would rust. If you have a normal closed loop heating system, use a 007-F5 as a replacement. Ted Gregoriadis

Docfletcher

I should mention that the old indirect had the circ on the return side. So it was 2 circs on supply side and 2 on the return. Makes me think yen & yang.

Docfletcher

New F5 came today. Wimpier than old older models by the looks of Venturi. Looks like they cut allot out of the casting to save weight and cost. They no longer place labels on the wiring box, only on the motor end.

Docfletcher

So I put the new circ in today. I was not able to replace just the motor & cartridge due to the O ring seal area on the old Venturi being damaged and pitted on top by rust. I might of got away with it, but decided not to chance it. So the whole new circ went in.

The boiler takes considerably longer to get to 180F now. What's more is the fact that 180F on the high limit is now accurate to the gauge. A relief for me as now I will not need to buy another limit control.

Water appears to have shorted out the motor winding's causing the circ failure.

Contrary to what the Taco rep told me there was no brass cartridge in this circ, it is steel. Here are two photos, one showing the winding's and one showing the cartridge.

http://screencast.com/t/0L4A8yqMB

http://screencast.com/t/8ucEiI2OcmD

SWEI

Docfletcher said:

Water appears to have shorted out the motor winding's causing the circ failure.

What pH is your water? This would be highly irregular.

Docfletcher

I'd have to test it to find out for sure. But, I am on not on well water. Multi town city water. The last time I checked it was 7.5, if memory serves. I will test it just for grins.

I am a happy camper tonight. Radiators (fin tube) are warmer than they were. I wish I could impart to you how much warmer but suffice it to say for sure warmer.

I think the circ probably failed in the late fall of 2012, and maybe precipitated some of the problems I had since then.

icesailor

SWEI said:

Docfletcher said:

Water appears to have shorted out the motor winding's causing the circ failure.

What pH is your water? This would be highly irregular.

Not when the O-Ring seal fails between the body and the rotor flange held in place by the plate. The weeping water moisture will kill the outside windings right snappy, they will. Or excessive moisture in the boiler cabinet.

Even on new pumps, I always took them apart and lubed up the O-Ring and plate/flanges with SuperLube Synthetic Grease. To eliminate any possibility of a leak. I never had one.
Lubrication is a wonderful thing.

Docfletcher

Condensation issue appears to be gone!

You can actually see the area of water infiltration on the complete top right quadrant and one smaller spot in the lower left quadrant.

The whole inner venturi area is coated with black oxide.

I'll get a few photos up soon.

Docfletcher

Photo

I have edited this to show the only photo left of the old circ.

http://screencast.com/t/kRDJgCR2VUd

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