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Where to get push nipples for cast iron radiator

NassauTom
NassauTom Member Posts: 51
edited November 2014 in THE MAIN WALL
One of my ~100 year old cast iron radiators cracked and two large chunks broke out leaving a very large hole in the end section. I removed the radiator and removed the broken end section. (It is my understanding that there are two basic ways the sections of cast iron radiators were connected: threaded nipples and push nipples. Much of what I've read indicates that sections of a radiator assembled with threaded nipples are almost impossible to separate. If the radiator is assembled with push nipples, it will have two threaded rods running the length of the radiator, one toward the bottom and the other toward the top. Using a socket wrench on one end and another socket wrench on the other end, I found it easy to loosen the nuts and remove these threaded rods. Then, with the radiator lying on its side, the sections can be separated with a wooden wedge and a sledgehammer. I made a wedge from a scrap of 2x3, cutting a long taper on each side of one end. You have to hit the wedge pretty hard with the sledgehammer several times before the sections begin to separate, but they will separate.)

I was unable to find a comparable cast iron radiator or radiator section at the architectural salvage places in town so I resorted to scavenging the comparable section from another radiator I have (long story). So, now I just need to put the replacement section on the radiator. But wait, what about those push nipples? I haven't tried yet, but I am assuming I am going to mangle them when I remove them from the old radiator section. Even if I manage to get them out intact, I am reluctant to reuse them. I believe they seal by deforming much like a ferrule deforms in a compression fitting, so I would think they would not provide a good seal if reused.

So, here is my question: Does anyone know where to get push nipples? None of the plumbing supply places (and I'm not talking big box) in town have them (a bit surprising to me since there are a ton of cast iron radiators still in use here in the northeast). One guy referred me to Governale in Brooklyn, but they don't make these. I tried calling Oneida County Boiler Works which was recommended in a post on oiltechtalk.com, but the number was disconnected.

These push nipples are nothing more than large ferrules. One is 2 inch ID x 1-1/2 inch length and the other is 1-3/4 inch ID x 1-5/16 inch length (this length might really be 1-1/4 or 1-3/8; I haven't removed them yet so the lengths were a bit hard to measure...and my eyes are no longer young.) What I don't know is the material and the tapers on the OD.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Comments

  • gcp13
    gcp13 Member Posts: 122
    Could you put something up against the inside lip of the nipple hold it and hit the radiator down to pop the nipple out
    If you clean up the old nipples I bet they'll work fine
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    I think I may have just answered my own question. I found this source on the internet: oswaldsupply.com/boilers-heating-supplies/nipples/radiator-push-nipples.html
  • gcp13
    gcp13 Member Posts: 122
    Wow that's good to know
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited November 2014
    Oh if it had only been as easy as that.

    I never knew of anyone that used a old push nipple over in another radiator.
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    Icesailor, that would mean, I think, that you know people who have gotten new push nipples. Do you know where they got them? (In case my new found source dries up)
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    I'll ask an ignorant question......They use gaskets between boiler sections, why couldn't you use Permatex, and re-use the push nipple?
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    The seal design in cast iron radiator sections is completely different from a seal that uses gaskets which involves parallel machined surfaces on the mating surfaces. The seal between the radiator sections is between the OD of the nipple and the ID of the section ports and the seal is achieved through an interference fit between the nipple and the ports. An interference fit by its nature causes deformation of one of the parts (in this case the nipple). I don't know whether the nipple in this application only deformed elastically or if it also deformed plasticly. I'm guessing that the nipples have undergone plastic deformation which means they will not return to their undeformed size and shape when removed from the radiator port. This would mean that reusing a push nipple would not provide the seal that a new push nipple would provide and might not seal properly at all. The design of this seal does not use gaskets; trying to use a gasket in this application would not work.
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    By the way, Oswald Supply (the link I provided above) had the push nipple for the bottom port but not the top port (go figure!) So, if anyone out there knows where to get push nipples for cast iron radiators, I could sure use the info. Thanks.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    I am a machinist, by trade. I referenced boiler sections because if a seal could be made between the radiators sections with a gasket material, it would be no different than some boilers. Permatex Form-a-Gasket would not require the surfaces to be machined, or parallel. They would have to be clean, and I might stone them, but I can see no reason it wouldn't seal.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    icesailor said:

    Oh if it had only been as easy as that.

    I never knew of anyone that used a old push nipple over in another radiator.

    We have. Every time we get a radiator that has frozen and cracked, we harvest the push nipples from it if they are in good condition.

    When we use one of these to repair a radiator, we smear it with red high-temp silicone caulk to make sure it seals. Plus we run a bead of caulk around the diameter of the push nipple to seal the gap in the cast-iron around it. We've never had a problem doing it this way.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    NassauTomLong Beach Ed
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    Steamhead, thanks for the info. How do you remove the push nipples so that they are in good condition for reuse?
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    I'd patiently drill holes in the casting that retains the push nipple. Then drive a tapered pin punch into a hole and split it. Steamhead probably knows an easier way.
    NassauTom
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    NassauTom said:

    Steamhead, thanks for the info. How do you remove the push nipples so that they are in good condition for reuse?

    Take a suitable piece of pipe with no threads on it. 1" steel pipe will work with 1-1/2" or 2" push nipples, you need a piece about a foot long. After splitting the sections apart, stick the pipe in the other side of the section from the nipple you want to remove. Set the edge of the pipe onto the edge of the push nipple and strike it a few times with your hammer. Move the pipe to the other side of the push nipple every few hammer blows. The push nipple should come out.

    The reason to use a piece of pipe rather than a punch or chisel is that the pipe will contact more of the push nipple's surface. Therefore the push nipple is much less likely to distort.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    NassauTom
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722
    Steamhead, question. Would a brass drift work as well? My father used to use one all the time for the same reason...didn't want to mess up some surface he was trying to preserve. I don't need to was just curious what your thoughts on that would be.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    Aha. Now I see the disconnect. You are describing how to remove the nipple from a middle section where you have access to the inside of the nipple from the other side. The push nipples I need to remove are in the damaged end section, so access to push it out with a pipe and sledgehammer is not there. But...I guess all I really need to do is smash holes in the section opposite the ports to give me the access I need for the pipe. Thank you very much for your time and info. I'll post an update on my results tomorrow. Thanks again for the insights.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    KC_Jones said:

    Steamhead, question. Would a brass drift work as well? My father used to use one all the time for the same reason...didn't want to mess up some surface he was trying to preserve. I don't need to was just curious what your thoughts on that would be.

    If it had the same contact area as a piece of 1" pipe would, it would work the same. Remember we don't have much contact area on the end of a push nipple, so we have to max it out however we can. But at today's prices I doubt we're going to buy a 12-inch length of 1-1/8" OD brass stock just to bang on it.............

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722
    Steamhead said:

    KC_Jones said:

    Steamhead, question. Would a brass drift work as well? My father used to use one all the time for the same reason...didn't want to mess up some surface he was trying to preserve. I don't need to was just curious what your thoughts on that would be.

    If it had the same contact area as a piece of 1" pipe would, it would work the same. Remember we don't have much contact area on the end of a push nipple, so we have to max it out however we can. But at today's prices I doubt we're going to buy a 12-inch length of 1-1/8" OD brass stock just to bang on it.............

    LOL the one my father has is probably 50 years old and I doubt he paid for it. He never throws anything away and has a way of "acquiring" things. I agree I wouldn't buy either I was just curious.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • vibert_c
    vibert_c Member Posts: 69
    Try this search string in the Wall's search engine.

    "push nipples" supply
    Here is what I found.
    http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1316429#Comment_1316429
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    edited November 2014
    Thanks! I had searched for "cast iron radiator" and did not find much. I didn't occur to me to search for "push nipples." There is some good info and some good ideas in that thread. As I mentioned in my initial post, Oneida County Boilerworks appears to be out of business: the phone number is disconnected and the web address is available for sale.
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    I used Steamhead's approach and removed the nipples from the broken section. It worked like a charm (I was lucky to have an old pipe laying around that had a fitting on it that was almost the same diameter as the nipple.) The nipples were in good condition; I cleaned them up with 600 grit sandpaper and extra fine steel wool. I coated the nipples with high temp silicone as recommended by Steamhead and reassembled the radiator.

    Here is my next dilemma. During the process of removing the radiator, which was very wedged in between the supply side valve and the elbow and riser on the return side, the return riser was pulled up about 3/4-inch. I figured leaving it that way until
    i put the radiator back in would give me the needed wiggle room to get it back in. Well, it did...but, with a big "BUT". I also figured that the weight of the radiator would push the pipe back down, but it didn't. Now the return end of the radiator is 3/4-inch off the floor and the nuts on the radiator, of course, don't line up properly with the mating threads because of the slight angle. I've tried sharply tapping the top of the elbow on the return with a sledgehammer (and protective scrap of wood); no luck. Under the floor (unfinished basement), the riser transitions through a series of elbows to a horizontal pipe about 2 feet long which goes via a few more elbows to a larger perpendicular horizontal pipe. Pipes are all rigid steel (or black pipe...whatever they used a hundred or so years ago). I tried to pry the 2 foot horizontal pipe with a pry bar to try to reverse the movement that had taken place when I pulled the radiator out. It wouldn't budge. I am so close...and yet so far...from having heat again. Does anyone have any ideas on how I might get that return pipe back to its original position???
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722
    Take some pics and post them if you can. The pipes under the floor as well as above the floor. It's hard to say without seeing it.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 282
    edited November 2014
    that's a good idea to see some photos of this..
    i can't see how this pipe came up and can't go down now..all of the ones i've seen have up and down room have room..maybe just take a piece of wood and stand on it..and see what happens..

    could there be a piece of wood wedged somewhere below that fell and preventing this from coming up..how about a jack between the floor from the bottom and the pipe..or maybe the pipe is wedged on a side of the hole in the floor...if it had play before it must be blocked somehow...or a rope and hang on the pipe from below.

    maybe the radiator had some sort of piece to raise it up under the legs on the other side before you took it out. i have to see these pictures too. there shouldn't be an angle here. a 3/4 piece of plywood on the other side to raise the side and level the radiator for now will get you going possibly..and maybe permanently.

    I spoke with Oneida last month..didn't know they went out of business...I'd check that out again.
    Doug_45
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722
    Is there a strap on the vertical pipe holding it to a joist? That could bind solid...just like a pipe clamp for wood working. I wouldn't think there is because that basically wouldn't make sense, but I have seen some really strange stuff in old houses....really strange stuff.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    Wow. Thanks for all of the responses. You are correct; I should have taken pictures and posted them with my previous post. So, here goes. It's a little harder to photograph than you'd think. Anyway, the pic 1 is the left side of the radiator which is the return side. The pic 2 is taken from underneath the radiator toward the feet and riser on the left. As you can see, the radiator feet are off the floor and there is an unpainted segment of the riser pipe that corresponds with the amount that the pipe was pulled up when I pulled out the radiator. Pic 3 is a view of the riser coming through the basement ceiling. Pic 4 shows the riser coming down on the right to the horizontal pipe (behind the dryer vent pipe) that leads back to the larger pipe on the left (the joint being underneath the duct tape which I fear is covering asbestos).
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    oops. Here are the pictures.
    1.jpg 166.6K
    2.jpg 149.8K
    3.jpg 306.3K
    4.jpg 288.5K
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    KC_Jones, yes this is an old house and it definitely has a ton of strange stuff to be discovered at every turn. WW, there was no spacer board under the right side before I took the radiator out. Oh, and when I say "I", I really mean my son and I and he probably was doing more of the heavy lifting than I was. We definitely noticed the riser pipe jerk up as we finally pulled the radiator out (it was captive between the pipes on either end). I did briefly contemplate trying to pull up the pipe on the right side to correspond with the new height of the pipe on the left. I may resort to trying that!!
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 282
    did you take any pictures of what it looked like before you started?

    the view from the basement...the long pipe leading to the elbow..the elbow is covered with some grey stuff...wonder if that is rotted out and cracked or something?..who knows...

    i see at the foot of the radiator it looks like it wasn't painted like that was below level of the floor...wonder why there is no paint there?
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    edited November 2014
    Unfortunately, the only picture I took of the radiator before I started this was one of the broken pieces leaning up against the radiator, and it only shows the right side of it. Here it is.

    And, once I get the heat fixed, I have the problem of the black water from the heating system soaking into the hardwood floor as you can see here, but that is a problem for another day. First things first.
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    The grey stuff covering the elbow between the horizontal pipe and the larger horizontal pipe is duct tape. That it the duct tape that I fear the previous owner put on to cover asbestos. There is not paint on the bottom portion of the riser pipe because it was below the surface of the floor until I unintentionally pulled the pipe up while removing the radiator.
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    WW, perhaps I misunderstood your observation. If your "no paint" observation is regarding the feet on the radiator, the left end section of the radiator is the section I scavenged from another radiator to replace the shattered end section of this radiator. I don't know why it didn't have paint on the lower portion of the feet, but it was in a different room in a different situation, so it doesn't provide any helpful information to the current situation.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    You swapped the half of the radiator el from the broken section to this section?
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    I'd redo the piping. If you look at the riser, it's no longer plumb, which would concern me that threads have moved in a fitting.
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 282
    ok..was just curious since that would seem to be below the floor..but since you took it off you would have seen that..that answers the question.

    paul 48 is thinking some movement too...i was thinking the same thing...after you check under the duct tape..and see if it's cracked or rusted out...if asbestos...spray with water and drop of dishwashing liquid. just turn the fitting below where the nipple goes in from top and get a shorter nipple..

    it's strange but who knows what the other guy did..may have used a big crow bar between floor and pipe to get it to fit..and when you took it off..it popped up..if that's the case try the same..if not..change the pipe..there are alot of ways to skin the cat...if you are good with wrenches,pipes,etc you can decide on it. i do alot of thinking and research on everything...but when i figure what i should do i just do it.

    if the pipe on the right has movement it should seek it's right level anyway..i noticed that picture of the radiator with the section cracked.. i see you scavenged the radiator section...it sounds odd but could that be 3/4 inch higher from the floor than the other side?...how did this radiator crack?
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 282
    ok..was just curious since that would seem to be below the floor..but since you took it off you would have seen that..that answers the question.

    paul 48 is thinking some movement too...i was thinking the same thing...after you check under the duct tape..and see if it's cracked or rusted out...if asbestos...spray with water and drop of dishwashing liquid. just turn the fitting below where the nipple goes in from top and get a shorter nipple..

    it's strange but who knows what the other guy did..may have used a big crow bar between floor and pipe to get it to fit..and when you took it off..it popped up..if that's the case try the same..if not..change the pipe..there are alot of ways to skin the cat...if you are good with wrenches,pipes,etc you can decide on it. i do alot of thinking and research on everything...but when i figure what i should do i just do it.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    This is a common problem in old houses. Especially houses with rubble-stone and brick foundations(ask me how I know). The house settle much more than modern construction. When you disconnect a radiator, the pipes go boing( technical term ). That's also the reason I would repipe it. The more you push, pull, yank, and bang, the more likely you are to get a leak somewhere else.
    I asked about the el, because you can't mix and match them.They won't seal.
    NassauTom
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    Perhaps that pipe tension is why the radiator cracked in the first place. You may have no choice but to repipe it so that tension is removed.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    NassauTom
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    Paul48, that is a very astute conclusion. The pipe did indeed go boing, but being the self-centered egotist that I am, I thought that I had moved it in the process of pulling out the radiator. It did not occur to me that it moved by itself once the forces restraining it were removed (i.e., the radiator). And, yes, there are signs of significant settling all over this house, so your hypothesis has much merit.

    I have also been concerned about creating leaks elsewhere by trying to move this rigid pipe back into position.

    I had to replace the bushing and the fitting/nipple with the captive nut because I damaged the old nipple trying to remove it from the bushing in the old, damaged radiator section. So, I think the solution here is to continue with new copper from the radiator down into the basement and over to a convenient spot to mate back up to the black iron (as has been done in much of the rest of the house).

    A BIG "thank you" to everyone who took the time to help me with this problem. All of your ideas and perspectives have given me a much better understanding of what I am dealing with and what the proper course of action is. This is a great forum with a bunch of very smart and helpful people.
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    BobC, that is a good point. I don't know why the radiator shattered. It has been in constant service since we moved in 9+ years ago, so failure from freeze damage is not a likely cause. Continued settling, if ever so slight, would have been putting increased stress on the pipes and the radiator that connected the pipes. The failure of the radiator and the sudden movement of the pipe upon removal of the radiator may, indeed, all be due to one common cause: a rigid piping system in a settling house.
  • NassauTom
    NassauTom Member Posts: 51
    The topic of this thread certainly has migrated from the original question: where to obtain radiator push nipples. The return piping from the radiator that I am going to replace appears to be black iron pipe with an OD of a little more than 1-1/2 inches. My read of pipe sizing charts leads me to conclude that this is 1-1/4 inch ID pipe. I would imagine I should be trying to maintain a similar ID with the copper I use to replace it, which would mean 1-1/4 copper tubing. And transitioning from the copper back to the black iron should be done with a brass fitting, correct? Sorry for the dumb questions. I have never worked with steel or black iron pipe and I have never done any work on a hydronic heat system before.